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According to Gartner 83% of HR technology buying decisions end in regret. In a world where talent acquisition is more complex and business-critical than ever, why are so many organizations making technology investments they later wish they hadn’t? The challenge isn’t just about picking the right tools; it’s about proving its value, winning stakeholder buy-in, and ensuring it delivers tangible business outcomes.
Buying talent acquisition technology has never been more challenging. Economic uncertainty, increasing stakeholder scrutiny, and the rapid pace of innovation mean that making the right decision—and proving its value—can feel like an uphill battle. With so much information available, how do TA leaders ensure they’re making the best possible choice while also securing the budget and support they need?
My guest this week is Matt Sharp, SVP of Go-To-Market and General Manager of EMEA at iCIMS. Matt shares expert insights into how organizations can navigate the complexities of building a compelling business case, engage vendors more strategically, and ultimately make technology decisions they won’t regret.
In the interview, we discuss:
• The difficulties and complexity of the current tech procurement landscape
• The increasing number of stakeholders involved in making a decision
• Mitigating risk through better research
• Involving vendors in the process in a strategic way
• Understanding what different stakeholders care about
• Dealing with mandated software that is not fit for purpose
• The business case isn’t the process. It is the output of the process.
• Value journeys and value engineering
• What does the future look like?
Matt Alder [00:00:00]:
According to Gartner, 83% of HR technology buying decisions end in regret. 83% in a world where talent acquisition is more complex and business critical than ever, why are so many organizations making technology investments they later wish they hadn’t? The challenge isn’t just about picking the right tool. It’s about proving its value, winning stakeholder buy in, and ensuring it delivers real business outcomes. Keep listening to find out how to do it.
Matt Alder [00:00:34]:
Support for this podcast is provided by iCIMS. iCIMS is the hiring platform that you’ll never outgrow. I’ve got to tell you, some of their customers have some really cool stories about how they’re hiring. And businesses have changed with iCIMS. Like Eagle View, a tech company that saved $2 million on their recruitment, marketing and now hires twice as fast. There’s Benefit Cosmetics, a popular brand that saves 20 minutes per candidate during their screening process. And of course, Kingfisher, the home improvement company that will be very familiar to European listeners. Kingfisher increased their job offer acceptance rate threefold. These are just a few examples. For the last 25 years, ISIMS has helped thousands of the world’s largest and fastest growing brands hire the talent they need, often in challenging and competitive markets. Names like Microsoft, PetSmart, Children’s National Hospital, Greyhound Lines, and the Cheesecake Factory. iCIMS comprehensive hiring platform helps enterprise organizations hire by employing AI where and how you need it. To learn more, visit iCIMS.com that’s icims.com.
Matt Alder [00:02:05]:
Hi there. Welcome to episode 680 of recruiting future with me, Matt Alder. Buying talent acquisition technology has never been more challenging. Economic uncertainty, increasing stakeholder scrutiny, and the rapid pace of innovation means making the right decision and and proving its value can feel like an uphill battle. With so much information available, how do TA leaders ensure they’re making the best possible choice while also securing the budget and support that they need? My guest this week is Matt Sharp, SVP of Go to Market and General Manager of EMEA at iCIMS. Matt shares some expert insights into how organizations can navigate the complexities of building a compelling business case Vendors more strategically and ultimately make technology decisions they won’t regret.
Matt Alder [00:03:04]:
Hi Matt, and welcome to the podcast.
Matt Sharp [00:03:06]:
Hi Matt, and thank you very much for having me. And just a quick note to say hello to all of your listeners around the world as well.
Matt Alder [00:03:15]:
Absolutely. Well, it’s a pleasure to have you on the show, please, could you introduce yourself and tell everyone what you do?
Matt Sharp [00:03:23]:
Yeah. So my name is Matt Sharp and I am the SVP of Go to Market and the General Manager for iCIMS EMEA operation and business.
Matt Alder [00:03:35]:
Fantastic. For people who just might not be familiar, just give us a couple of. Give us a couple of seconds about iCIMS.
Matt Sharp [00:03:40]:
Yeah. So we are one of the. I would say, and I think it’s sort of verified and validated across the market in a number of different ways, but we are one of the leading providers of talent acquisition technology. That is our focus. That’s what we do, Matt. We don’t look at the wider HR spectrum in terms of talent management, those types of things. TA is where we have been focused and anchored for since our inception, really. We work with thousands of companies around the world. We have a distinct focus in what we would say is the enterprise. Our customers range from circa 500 to 1,000 employees, all the way up to our largest customers, about 300,000 employees globally. And based on that, you can probably imagine that we have significant numbers and data points going through our platform used by those various organizations. Just to give you an idea, our customers include organizations like Publicis and Danone across Europe and Microsoft and AstraZeneca across the wider geographies as well. So, yeah, that’s. That’s an insight as to who we are.
Matt Alder [00:05:00]:
So technology, and in particular buying technology, so, you know, building business cases, building tech stacks, all these kind of things. I know that it’s a massive challenge for people listening because we’re in a world where, you know, technology is evolving very quickly. You know, budgets are being cut, uncertainty everywhere. So people are finding kind of increasingly difficult to know what to do in terms of building business cases for technology. What does that landscape look like from your perspective?
Matt Sharp [00:05:31]:
I think the landscape from our perspective, Matt, is that we are seeing how difficult it is to navigate an organization, to navigate the stakeholders within the organization to determine what is a meaningful way on a number of different levels to not only create a business case, we’ll come on to this in a bit. Because I think the notion of creating a business case is the distinct output at the end of a process. I think where we’re at today is really much more about getting into the heart of the business and having to do a huge amount of stakeholder engagement and management and demonstrating value to those stakeholders. Because I think last year was a very challenging and interesting year. And we always talk. I’m not an economist and I was talking to one of my team yesterday about this as well. I’m not an economist. I don’t profess to understand it, but what I do understand is the notion of confidence in markets. And last year There was about 2 billion people at the polls globally voting for what the futures look like. And with that, I think that has a direct and distinct impact on confidence in markets and economies. And I think we saw a lot of that last year and by def. And I think one of the things is, is that we TA in the world of recruitment is really fascinating place to be. Because where I’m going with this is that every year we see that and every analyst report comes out that the top five challenges for a CEO is to find and retain the right skills, talent and people for their organization. And biggest risk is to not keep that talent and lose that talent to the organization. But when we enter a period where there is economic uncertainty and changes are made, the first thing that is always impacted pretty much is the world of TA and let’s put a hold and freeze on recruitment, those types of things. So it was, it’s, it’s very challenging. And I think there is an old classic adage that, you know, the more uncertainty the time, the more stakeholders that are involved in decision making. I think that was pretty obvious last year. Decision making groups, I think, grew extensively last year in terms of the number of stakeholders involved in a buying decision. And you know, we’re in a, we’re in a situation where we get to see this, we work in this day in, day out and get to see this across many, many different organizations in many different ways.
Matt Alder [00:08:15]:
Yeah, I think it’s interesting because it is such a challenging time and I think the other, the other dimension to it is on a podcast episode a few weeks ago, we were talking about budgeting and you know, one of the things that came up is the tier leaders constantly having to manage decisions that were made before they got there or managing, you know, justifying decisions that they didn’t make or software that had acquired that wasn’t fit for purpose. Is there a lot of, is there a lot of kind of buyer’s remorse about some of these software decisions as well?
Matt Sharp [00:08:41]:
Yeah, so I actually gave a, I actually gave a talk on this, Matt. And there’s, you know, Gartner and other analysts out there are pretty fascinating in terms of some of the research that they do. And one of the data points that they came up with was that 83, I think it was 83% of buying decisions of HR technology end up as regrettable.
Matt Alder [00:09:03]:
83%. Wow.
Matt Sharp [00:09:04]:
That is. That is a significant statistic. But, but the other side to that, Matt, is that then the secondary data point was that the biggest thing that people said that they would do more of to counter that would to. Was would to be to do more research ahead of that buying decision. And then the third thing is, and this is sort of where we anchored it in, in terms of the, the areas that we were talking about is that in today’s world, because of the accessibility to information and data, you know, the use of Google, the Internet, et cetera, plus, you know, crowdsourcing through peers, you know, insights into and referencing vendors, about 60% of all the decision is made before you even engage the vendors formally into a process. So there’s a, I think there’s a gap or something is slightly broken there in terms of how the market is engaged with to maybe mitigate that type of situation, because it’s quite a significant statistic and it was quite a one to see. Yeah.
Matt Alder [00:10:20]:
So I mean, the situation really is that people want to do more research, but they’re kind of bombarded by information. Budgets are being being cut. Buying decisions are getting more complicated. You know, there’s a, There’s a lot going on there. What can people do? So what can the people listening, how can they kind of structure a process to get the budget they need and also ultimately get the technology that’s going to bring value to the business?
Matt Sharp [00:10:43]:
I think, and, and I’m not, I’m not saying this because, you know, I, I’m representing a vendor in the market. I’m saying this because this is because we are very passionate about the world of TA and the world of recruitment and the value that it demonstrates and brings. And I think that the first most fundamental thing that anybody can do when they’re about to go and buy or want to start to look at buying technology, is to anchor everything in what the actual objective is and the rationale and the reason why. I don’t think these points are sort of revolutionary, but I think this is. We’ve gone around us, we’ve gone round, I think in a bit of a cycle where it’s now really important to draw it back to the notion of value and remember that you’re not trying to buy technology. And if you start off on that path, you will end up buying just a technology and a tool. And that will mean that you are not really evaluating the tool in the context of what it means to the business and the organization and you as a team to drive the outcomes you’re looking for. So I think the first thing is to remember that the objective is never to buy technology. The objective is to create value for the organization and drive a distinct return, whatever that may be. That could be more efficiency, better experiences. There’s a whole spectrum and scale of what value is, but anchor it there. That would be the first point I would suggest start and then I think then from there, Matt, definitely work with the vendors right from the word go.
Matt Alder [00:12:26]:
And how best is it to do that? Because you mentioned there was this kind of mismatch and people weren’t involving the vendors in their kind of research. I suspect that there is just a fear that they’re just going to be endlessly, endlessly sold to and not necessarily get high quality information. How, how should people manage that situation?
Matt Sharp [00:12:46]:
It’s a, it’s a really great point. So I, I sort of stress tested, if you like, some of the, some of the talking points with a few of our customers and a few of the people from a couple of networks. And the point was that we’re making this, is that it’s so critically important to start to bring in the, the vendors that you believe, you believe that are going to be able to deliver on the outcomes that you have and the objectives you’ve got the, and start working with them, start having conversations, start briefing them what it is you are trying to achieve. The challenge I got back was, well, doesn’t that mean that I’m going to have to speak to, like you’ve just said, Matt, many, many vendors having the same conversation. And the point was actually at the start, yes, because in doing so you are, I think, setting a benchmark which is you, are you. And a challenge to the vendors to see how they respond to what it is you’re actually asking of them and how well they comprehend what it is you are trying to achieve, the value you’re looking to create and the outcomes you’re looking to gain from making this decision. And I think what people will be able to see is see how vendors respond. Is a vendor literally just going to push you down the path of moving to, you know, a demonstration? Oh, have a look at this. We’ve got some great functionality and look how ui, isn’t it lovely? Or are the vendors going to push you? Are they going to consult with you? Are they going to ask for more? And I think what you’ll quickly see is you’ll start to see those vendors that are genuinely interested in creating a business outcome and creating a solution for you, not just at a Technical level, but at a partnership, relationship level, services, you name it, those types of commercial level versus those vendors that are literally just trying to make a sale with you of a tool that you can use. And I think that’s a really critical qualification standard. That will take time at the start, but I think will have a significant dividend at the end when you start to get to the notion of the formal business case with the stakeholders, because you have had that conversation and as much as, as much as the market and all this information is available out there, it gives you a really nice opportunity to assess for yourself the quality of that vendor in terms of what they deliver as well. Then ultimately I think it will really, in summary, do three things. It will help you with your research. For sure. Vendors do this day in, day out. They are always in evaluation cycles, they are always being assessed, they are always looking at the market to see how they can improve and add more value. And by definition you should expect a vendor to be able to have a good conversation with you about what you’re trying to achieve. I think it will help you help people to see how a vendor operates. Like are they literally just in it for the sale? Are they literally just operating on a feature function basis or are they trying to really understand your business? And it could be as annoying it could be to maybe provide information and that type of thing. Everyone is time pressured, but is it something that is going to allow that vendor to demonstrate actually a return on a and the solution and value? And ultimately this is the critical part for me, the buying network internally, it puts you in a position where you’re very, very well informed. So that means that every other stakeholder that you have to work with on this buying journey, you are essentially becoming the SME because you’ve done that homework. You’ve met with the vendors directly, you’ve sourced the information from peer groups, etc, you’ve researched and now you know that actually these are the five vendors, three vendors, whatever it may be, that actually I think are going to meet our need. And now this is how I want to architect the business case or start to architect the engagement, the business case moving forward. So that would be my view there.
Matt Alder [00:17:09]:
Let’s talk about the stakeholders because I think one of the biggest issues that we’ve seen in the last few years is talent. Acquisition is still seen as a very transactional part of the business. Much as people are trying very hard to be strategic. As you say, as soon as there’s a downturn or there’s people being hired, the layoffs come hard and fast, which is what certainly happened over the last couple of years. So what can people do to sort of build influence with those stakeholders to understand their needs? You know, what should they be doing before they actually build a business, build a business case?
Matt Sharp [00:17:44]:
Everybody that will be listening to this has, has, has been trained on this in some way or has experienced this in some way, but really is about stakeholder management and understanding what the different stakeholders care about, what’s valuable to them. The and the reason is, is that, you know, we mentioned it earlier. I think statistically speaking, There was about 6.8 stakeholders in a buying process a couple of years ago, and then as of last year, that’s gone up statistically to about 16. There was a piece of research that I was reading which actually saw it actually hit around 30 stakeholders on average in a buying decision. That’s a lot of ground to cover. But this is a big decision to make. And in order to do so, you’re going to have to relate reliably to the CFO who has particular view. For example, if we’re talking about execs that take the exec and then their organization, their cost savings, risk mitigation, what’s the roi, for example, is it going to, is it going to drive efficiency of the organization, et cetera? Because again, you know, from a CIO perspective or a CFO perspective and even a cio, there are elements of recruitment that are quite abstract, that we talk about. Employer, brand proposition, what the candid experience is like and that type of thing. That is not potentially a conversation that the CFO organization is probably adept at understanding or wants to understand. They want to understand what the return on investment is, what’s the value? To me then you have the CIO and the CTO organization which is really focused on digital transformation, how they’re consolidating tech stack, creating efficiency, reducing risk, and who is now really more responsible than ever on how to innovate effectively and drive efficiency through the wider tech stack than ever. So what’s going to be valuable to that organization? What’s the rate of innovation? What are you looking for? What’s our gen AI program or AI program that we’re looking at as a business? And how does the vendor or vendors that I am evaluating or thinking about evaluating stack up and align to that and complement that? And then, you know, you’ve got, for example, Chro and Ta and the audience here, you know, they’re all looking about everything from trends in terms of or evolving trends around hiring for skills, competing in different markets, competing for niche to skills hiring to volume skills hiring. Where. How does AI play into the world of ta? For example, what, how does, how do I as a TA organization demonstrate back to the wider business that because the TA organization is, is directly, directly impacts the notion of productivity and output from a business? Because it does. And these are, and that’s the sort of art form there, it’s really in my mind sort of tying that back and enabling TA to really have those conversations with those stakeholders based on what the value is to them in the context of how they look at everything. And ultimately being able to be in a position whereby you’re trying to get more supporters by the time you actually come to start a buying process, then you have detractors because they’re not clear on the value and have not been engaged effectively throughout the, that stage of the process. So, so, yeah, so just picking up.
Matt Alder [00:21:29]:
On that when you were talking about the, the HR director and the CIO there, I know that a massive issue that a lot of TA teams have is they get software mandated on them because there’s a bigger enterprise suite at play, whatever that is, and it might not necessarily be they have the best software for talent acquisition, shall we say. And I know a lot of people feel quite helpless in that, in that position, should they or are there sort of examples that you’ve seen in the past where people can actually sort of break free of those seemingly impossible constraints?
Matt Sharp [00:22:05]:
Yeah, there are definite examples. I mean we have, we ourselves have been, have customers that have made decisions to go strategically down a particular path as it relates to like more of a global platform, but then ultimately realize that their dependency on delivering TA and recruitment for the business is as such that the tools that they were available to them don’t meet the need, they don’t enable the TA teams to access the markets in the right way and that type of thing. I think we’re potentially seeing a lot of consolidation in the market from a technical perspective, from a business perspective. I think that’s definitely one driver that seems to be out there. But I think again, it comes back to being able to articulate the rationale why going with tool set and tools and solutions that enable recruitment and TA in the most effective way ties back into the ultimate value and the objectives of the business across those stakeholders, I think. And that’s if that’s how the conversation needs to be, that’s how the conversation needs to be anchored. Because again, TA and recruitment is not a HR process. The recruitment aspect, if you like, is the hiring process. But the talent acquisition aspect means that people are innovating all the time. They’re trying to find different ways to engage the market, hit the passive candidate market, find talent that is sometimes hard to find or be able to bench talent in order to deliver on a forthcoming objective where an organization is going to either set up a new division or go into a new country, whatever it may be. But the listeners to this will all be trying to innovate every day and trying to find different ways to compete for that talent pool. And that, I think gets lost a little bit in terms of the notion of buying a technology.
Matt Alder [00:24:18]:
Yeah, I think that’s a really, really interesting point actually. And I think it’s that you’ve really kind of summed up the problem with some of these bigger, more generic sort of technologies that people use. Moving on to just a. So lastly, the actual business case itself. Because a lot of things have happened here before. We’ve actually even sort of put a business case together based on, through all the work that’s been up to this point. What, you know, what, what should, what’s kind of an essential part of the business case? What works, what should people be considering within it?
Matt Sharp [00:24:49]:
Well, I think the way in which we sort of, sort of term this and we term this when we were talking about this, this journey is actually a value journey. So I think as you go through those various phases, it’s almost like you’re creating value. So what are my objectives? What are the objectives of the organization? And then how do I tie that back in and then to the outcomes that those various stakeholders are looking for as a starting point? And that’s where all the research comes with, with the vendors comes in. That’s where the critical path is. Then you go down to the value confirmation. So you’re actually confirming with your stakeholders internally that if we were to make this decision and if I was to get budget for this, this would be the value that you would expect or I can deliver for you within your organization and really show them the why this is a good decision. Not the fact that the decision or what the decision is, that is the decision is to buy technology. Yes. No, that’s not what we are saying. We’re saying here that if we make this decision, why it’s going to be beneficial is because of X, Y and Z. And that value doesn’t just. I think we instinctively, when we talk about value, look at the note, the positive aspect of value, not the risk aspect of value as well. And that value could be that actually in making this decision, we’re going to reduce the risk profile for the business. We’re going to. And that could be risk profiling, lack of productivity, risk profile in terms of compliance, whatever it might be, that all formulates the principles of value. And then ultimately those two areas aspects combined, which is a lot of research and a lot of prep start to give you or by the end you should be. We should have really meaningful data points that are tied to actual decision making drivers that actually show the aspects whereby those stakeholders would be in favor of make supporting this decision and signing it off. Then that is when you build a bit, that’s when you actually formalize it and put that business case together and start going through those official processes to actually formalize the, formalize this with the business. And that, Matt, is how I would sort of see you get to the point of actually building the business case. And that’s what I would say, you include that. And of course there’ll be analysis in there. There’ll be analysis from a TA perspective, a recruitment perspective, what the meaningful metrics if we were to do this, what would be the value of that? And actually Matt, this is something that we do all the time with organizations in terms of supporting them and helping them break down their evaluation. So it’s not just, it’s not looking at the technology, it’s looking at what the technology can deliver from a value perspective as it relates to them as a business and the dependency that they have on TA being a success. And there’s a couple of different strategies that we use with customers to help them get there.
Matt Alder [00:27:56]:
Interesting. Tell me more about that.
Matt Sharp [00:27:57]:
So we spent a lot of time doing what we would call value engineering, which is ultimately in the basic sense, it’s return on investment. But we actually spent a huge amount of time trying to help an organization break down the component parts of their operation, their TA operation, and then rebuilding it around the most meaningful aspects and drivers in a way that shows what the value is going to be of actually making the buying decision as it relates to the outcomes that they’re going to receive. So for example, and ROI is one of those things that I know and we see all the time and it’s that ROI is one of those things where you put a bunch of numbers into a calculator, it spits out, it’s going to save you 5 billion pounds sterling or 5 billion US every year. And it’s like that, you know, that is something that is so easily shot down by anybody within an organization because it’s just not real. It’s not anchored in the found the fundamentals of our business. So if I give you an example, one of our customers who went through, who needed to move off of their previous platform because it was actually starting to compromise their recruitment quite heavily. They’re an organization who have a huge demand for seasonal hiring and in doing so that seasonal hiring also equates to how they staff up certain parts of their organization. And those parts of their organization have a revenue stream attached to them. So concession stands. So this organization has got many, many, many, many locations across the world. And the instinct would be to try and break down that whole organization and say you’ve got what, 50 locations? Let’s take 50 that all the concession stands in every 50 locations and break that all down and then let’s come up with a number. But that’s not based in reality because there’s so many variables that go into that that don’t stack up to actually provide an outcome or a business case which is believable or would have integrity in front of senior execs when you’re asking them to sign something off. So what we actually did was it just took one location and we. And we focused on that location. We focused on all the hiring in that location and the we and that this was just one metric, just this concession stand, there was a number of others, but the concession stand, because it wasn’t able to be staffed up at points was meant that it wasn’t able to sell to all the, all of the customers that were coming in to use, you know, enjoy all the attractions and stuff like this, which was costing them money. So the simple equation was is that by having that concession stand fully staffed up for a full season based on these criteria and these parameters, I. E. When the season started, finish, etc, the net effect would be to generate X amount of revenue on average back into the business. Because you’re actually staffing with headcount the same with certain services that they’re offering as well. I’m just being careful in terms of the descriptive terms I use here. But just so certain services they offer because if they can’t open their services then that means that people can’t use them. If people can’t use them, then they lose custom. So again, we broke just that that down into one aspect that then allowed them as a business to run a meaningful extrapolation across the different aspects of their organization in a way that then allowed them to go to the senior exec and say here it is. And the senior exec could see that this is not based in just a number of, just a ton of numbers multiplied by X. This is based on reality of actually what’s going on today and how recruitment world class TA can be benefited by having the right platform and solution technology to drive the outcome they’re looking for. Which then ultimately leads to the value a commercial level, candidate level and a customer level as well, which is all in this instance or had a revenue stream attached to it. So yeah, that’s one example.
Matt Alder [00:32:31]:
And so final question. What do you think the future looks like? How would you hope that TA teams built relationships with vendors? What would buying technology, what should buying technology look like in the future?
Matt Sharp [00:32:44]:
I would hope. I mean this is, you know, there’s, there’s no hard and fast way, Matt, of, of, of doing this. I think the market is shifting to a point whereby I think it’s. And there’s a saturate of innovation in this market as well. I mean, I don’t think it’s so much, I don’t think it’s as much as it was. There was a point in time, I don’t know what you think about 1224, maybe slightly longer ago where it felt like every other quarter or every other month there was a new app that took a component part of the premium process that people could buy and use to do a specific part of it. And that’s just one example, the rate of innovation. And then you’ve got a number of vendors now include, you know, and we have a significant AI program. But AI is, is, is coming into play. So I think, I think in terms of there’s no hard and fast way. I think the reality is, is that the research that you have available to you is only one aspect or perspective. I think really people should trust the vendors aren’t just trying to sell them that they can add good value in terms of creating the business case and evolving, evolving the proposition internally. Importantly, irrespective of whether you choose that vendor in the end or not, you know, there are, you know, being able to talk to five different vendors for their five different perspectives on a solution for you also gives you a really nice idea and perspective as to how to, how you might look at things moving forward in general. So I think, in short, really, I would, it would be great to see more engagement I think before you get to the final business case and procurement processes to really try and mitigate that crazy statistic at the start in terms of the buyer’s remorse. I mean that’s just pretty scary. And then from there allow people to formulate business cases that are based on value as it relates to the individuals within organization, the stakeholders they’ve got. And I think in doing so, I think it will help organize help TA and recruitment teams specifically counter some of the trends that they may be experiencing in order to get what they need and what they want in order to deliver on their commitments to the business.
Matt Alder [00:35:11]:
Matt, thank you very much for joining me.
Matt Sharp [00:35:14]:
Matt, it’s been a pleasure. Thank you so much.
Matt Alder [00:35:17]:
My thanks to Matt. You can follow this podcast on Apple Podcasts on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. You can search all the past episodes at recruitingfuture.com on that site. You can also subscribe to our weekly newsletter Recruiting Future Feast and get the inside track on everything that’s coming up on the show. Thanks very much for listening. I’ll be back next time and I hope you’ll join me.
