Employer Branding continues to be a hugely popular topic for discussion in the talent acquisition industry, probably because so many employers find it difficult to do. So why should companies bother with employer branding, what impact does it actually have and how does it relate to the employee experience?
My guest this week is Toni Thompson, VP People & Talent at The Muse. Toni has some fantastic insights to share into the great work The Muse is doing on its employer brand and how this is directly impacting hiring and retention.
In the interview we discuss:
• The recruiting challenges The Muse faces
• The challenge of keeping an employer brand authentic as things change
• Using wow factors for a positive candidate experience
• What an EVP really is
• The relationship between employer brand and employee experience
• Why some employers find employer branding so difficult
• The measurable impact of employer brand on hiring and retention
Toni also talks about the role of technology and has some great advice to share on how employers can get started on strategic employer branding
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Transcript:
Matt Alder [00:00:00]:
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Matt Alder [00:01:22]:
Hi everyone, this is Matt Alder. Welcome to episode 158 of the Recruiting Future podcast. Employer branding continues to be a hugely popular topic for discussion in talent acquisition, possibly because so many employers find it so difficult to do so. Why should companies bother with employer branding? What impact does it actually have? And how does it relate to the employee experience? My guest this week is Toni Thompson, VP of People and Talent for the Museum. Toni has some fantastic insights to share into the great work the Muse is doing on its employer branding and how this directly impacts their hiring and retention. Enjoy the interview.
Matt Alder [00:02:08]:
Hi, Toni, and welcome to the podcast.
Toni Thompson [00:02:11]:
Hello. Thanks for having me.
Matt Alder [00:02:13]:
An absolute pleasure to have you on the show. Could you just introduce yourself and tell everybody what you do?
Toni Thompson [00:02:19]:
Sure. So I’m a talent leader who’s really passionate about leadership, diversity and quality talent. Fit. But functionally, I serve as the VP of People and Talent at the Muse, where I lead a team responsible for hiring extraordinary talent with the skills and attributes we need to meet our culture and business needs and also making sure our employee and candidate experience is really superior. So, in a nutshell, my team really handles hr learning and development, employer branding and recruiting.
Matt Alder [00:02:53]:
Now, there may be some people listening who, unbelievably are not familiar with the Muse and the great the great work you guys do. Could you just give us a kind of a bit of background to the Muse?
Toni Thompson [00:03:05]:
Sure, sure. So the Muse is. We describe ourselves as a trusted and loved career platform. It’s used by 75 million people to.
Toni Thompson [00:03:12]:
Research companies and careers every day.
Toni Thompson [00:03:14]:
And what’s really special about our platform is that we offer an authentic look inside a company’s culture, their workplace, their values, all the things that’s really hard to find on a job description. And then we also offer organizations, HR.
Toni Thompson [00:03:29]:
And talent professional, mostly a variety of tools to help them capture their employee stories using our technology.
Toni Thompson [00:03:34]:
And then we turn those stories into really modern and engaging content.
Toni Thompson [00:03:38]:
Most of that content is video.
Toni Thompson [00:03:40]:
And then we help them measure the impact of their employer brand on their recruiting efforts. So it’s a female founded technology company.
Toni Thompson [00:03:48]:
And I’ve been here for almost about two years and it’s a really great place to work.
Matt Alder [00:03:53]:
So what kind of recruiting challenges do you guys face and how do you overcome them?
Toni Thompson [00:04:00]:
Yeah, so I think one of the challenges is probably a challenge that many listening are facing, which is ensuring candidates.
Toni Thompson [00:04:08]:
Have a positive experience along the way.
Toni Thompson [00:04:10]:
Because as you can imagine, the recruiters can set up as many frameworks and do as much encouraging as possible. But there’s so much of the candidate experience that we do not handle directly. And so making sure that that process is really positive and putting a lot.
Toni Thompson [00:04:27]:
Of intentional effort into that is really important.
Toni Thompson [00:04:30]:
72% of people who have a bad.
Toni Thompson [00:04:32]:
Experience report and share that online directly with their colleagues or friends.
Toni Thompson [00:04:37]:
And so making sure that that experience is really positive is one challenge. I’ll talk about how we try to.
Toni Thompson [00:04:45]:
Overcome that on a consistent basis.
Toni Thompson [00:04:48]:
But the second challenge is really related to that stat I just said, which is the 72% report having a bad experience. And that is ensuring our employer brand.
Toni Thompson [00:04:59]:
Stays authentic, but also a powerful talent attractor.
Toni Thompson [00:05:03]:
So we’ve overcome the positive candidate experience challenge by providing the basics, but then also inserting some wow factors. And what I mean by basics is.
Toni Thompson [00:05:13]:
That we ensure that there’s a person.
Toni Thompson [00:05:16]:
Greeting the candidate, they know who they’re going to meet, they have some context.
Toni Thompson [00:05:20]:
Into what the person does that they’re going to meet. They have water, they have a tour of the room.
Toni Thompson [00:05:24]:
I mean, those seem like such basic things, but the reality is a lot of recruiting teams are really short on resources and when the jobs are overflowing.
Toni Thompson [00:05:33]:
It’S really easy to overlook those little things. And so we try to stay really diligent about not overlooking the basics, but.
Toni Thompson [00:05:41]:
We also try to insert a lot of wow factors.
Toni Thompson [00:05:43]:
And what I mean by that is.
Toni Thompson [00:05:45]:
We send content, video links, quotes from our employees, things like that at certain stages in the process so that we’re informing candidates along the way. And it may be a situation where candidates are learning a little bit more about our half day or Summer retreat or a little bit more about, you know, some videos where we explain really the business mission and they may not align to those things along the way. And that’s fine.
Toni Thompson [00:06:11]:
We’re trying to inform people as much as possible and give them as much.
Toni Thompson [00:06:15]:
Insight as to what it’s like to really work at our company along the way so that they’re self selecting out if it’s not right for them along the way as well. So those are some of the more like, wow factors. We include quotes from people that they’re about to meet, which is really effective.
Toni Thompson [00:06:32]:
In some of our outreach.
Toni Thompson [00:06:34]:
And we have a fun team page, things like that. So that’s how we kind of combat.
Toni Thompson [00:06:38]:
The candidate experience and try to keep that positive.
Toni Thompson [00:06:42]:
But trying to overcome the challenge of making sure our employer brand is authentic is an ongoing challenge, really. I mean, I think we, like many companies, try to be really intentional about our employer brand and try to stay really connected with what our employees are.
Toni Thompson [00:07:00]:
Thinking and feeling at any moment and analyze on a quarterly basis how that.
Toni Thompson [00:07:05]:
Aligns with some of the messaging out there in the world about us. And I’ll give you an example. We, at one point when the company started, had a very, very, very flexible work environment. And much of that is still true. But as we scaled, there were certain.
Toni Thompson [00:07:20]:
Departments that wanted to add more structure around that and didn’t have and had more set working hours than we had in the past.
Toni Thompson [00:07:28]:
And some of our messaging, from a recruiting standpoint, reflected a previous period of our company. And so we had to change that because there was a misalignment with some.
Toni Thompson [00:07:38]:
Of the talent that was coming in the door.
Toni Thompson [00:07:39]:
So that’s just an example of really being tied to what is actually happening.
Toni Thompson [00:07:45]:
In the company and then projecting that appropriately.
Matt Alder [00:07:48]:
So you’ve sort of talked a lot about employer brand there, and I know that employer brand is obviously, you know, a key part of the Muse’s offering as well. I’ve kind of noticed that there are lots of different sort of views around what employer branding actually is and what it actually consists of. What’s your definition of employer branding?
Toni Thompson [00:08:09]:
Sure. So I think of your employer brand as what people are saying about you when you’re not in the room, and that’s employees and candidates. And I think every company has an.
Toni Thompson [00:08:22]:
Employer brand, whether they’re intentional about it or not.
Toni Thompson [00:08:26]:
And so many times you’ll hear the phrase employer value proposition, and I think of that as really getting clear on what your company offers that your competitors do not. From an employer standpoint, everything down to benefits, to the way you work, to.
Toni Thompson [00:08:45]:
Your expectations of employees when they come in.
Toni Thompson [00:08:47]:
You know who’s, who’s thriving at your company and what’s the expectation. From a talent perspective, all those things together really form your evp. And once you’re clear on that and your managers are aligned and your employees know what it is, they think it’s accurate, then you’re sort of pulling out what parts of that employer value proposition.
Toni Thompson [00:09:07]:
You want to project externally.
Toni Thompson [00:09:09]:
And that external message then becomes your employer brand. The part about that that is very much so maddening, I think for a lot of people and exciting for some is that there’s a part of that external messaging that you put out that really can’t be controlled and can be contradicted if it’s not authentic enough, it can be contradicted by the stories that other people hear about your company, about the stories that they, that they heard employees or candidates had at your company. So it’s really important again to make sure that whatever you’re projecting is really aligned to what the company is and.
Toni Thompson [00:09:53]:
Where the company wants to go.
Toni Thompson [00:09:54]:
And you know, sometimes that employer brand.
Toni Thompson [00:09:57]:
Is a little bit aspirational, but making.
Toni Thompson [00:09:59]:
Sure that it’s going through enough rounds of communication across the organization so that employees are able to know, you know, which parts of this are like absolutely.
Toni Thompson [00:10:10]:
True right now and which parts of this are things we’re working on and aspiring to be.
Toni Thompson [00:10:15]:
But getting buy in is probably the most important part.
Toni Thompson [00:10:17]:
When I say authentic.
Matt Alder [00:10:19]:
So you mentioned that you sort of, you’re, you’re tracking the, the effectiveness on an ongoing basis. How important are you actually finding that your employer brand, your employer brand is, and your employer brand activity is in terms of attracting and retaining the talent you need?
Toni Thompson [00:10:36]:
Yeah, I mean, I think it’s an incredibly important, you know, we’ve learned from our community, 89% of HR professionals agree that a strong employer brand gives you an advantage over your competitors. So I definitely think a lot of our clients feel this too. And it’s what I think is difficult about the topic of employer brand. I think for a lot of HR.
Toni Thompson [00:10:59]:
And talent professionals, as we wrap our.
Toni Thompson [00:11:00]:
Heads around this, you know, it’s similar.
Toni Thompson [00:11:02]:
To a challenge that marketing professionals have.
Toni Thompson [00:11:04]:
Had over their branding efforts for years. Right. Like how do you track all the different types of channels and messages that you’re putting out there when sometimes you can’t directly track that a candidate saw.
Toni Thompson [00:11:18]:
Something and that inspired them to action?
Toni Thompson [00:11:21]:
And it’s the same challenge that marketers are facing. But I do think that if you ask any recruiter, they will tell you that when something negative happens in the press, or if something is out there that is negative, or the company goes.
Toni Thompson [00:11:37]:
Through a period of change, it’s not managed well, and suddenly employees are unhappy.
Toni Thompson [00:11:41]:
That it directly impacts their ability to get candidates to respond to them. And for anyone who’s an experienced recruiter who has gone through those periods where.
Toni Thompson [00:11:52]:
You’Re trying to overcome negative press or you’re trying to overcome a period of low morale in your company, you absolutely understand the impact of employer brand.
Toni Thompson [00:12:01]:
How that translates to an exact metric. And getting our hands around actual metrics.
Toni Thompson [00:12:08]:
I think, is the challenge that everyone in the HR and talent industry is facing at the moment.
Toni Thompson [00:12:13]:
But I’m happy to see that we’re making a lot of progress, but it absolutely does. The ability to have a strong reputation out there through employees and your crafted content is really powerful in getting candidates to come to you or respond to.
Toni Thompson [00:12:32]:
Your outreach much quicker.
Matt Alder [00:12:34]:
You mentioned degrees of authenticity and the importance of high level of authenticity in terms of the stories that you’re telling. What part does the employee experience play in all of this?
Toni Thompson [00:12:50]:
Yeah, I mean, the employee experience is really everything to me. I mean, I think it starts with the employee experience. I think employer branding is all centered around that. And so I always recommend that people.
Toni Thompson [00:13:04]:
If they don’t have it, have Pulse.
Toni Thompson [00:13:06]:
Surveys set up using, you know, whatever tool you’d like. Some people just use general surveys.
Toni Thompson [00:13:12]:
We use a tool called Culture Amp.
Toni Thompson [00:13:14]:
Which is actually really effective. And we also use our own technology.
Toni Thompson [00:13:19]:
Called Brand Builder to pull out employee stories.
Toni Thompson [00:13:22]:
And, you know, those. Those things really, really help us in.
Toni Thompson [00:13:26]:
Making sure that we have an authentic message out there.
Toni Thompson [00:13:29]:
And it allows us to keep track very much on a quarterly basis. We do a deep dive on some of the sentiments that we’re hearing in.
Toni Thompson [00:13:39]:
Response to some of the questions we’re putting out there around how employees are feeling about their experience.
Toni Thompson [00:13:44]:
And we share the results with the company. But more importantly, we actually dig into.
Toni Thompson [00:13:49]:
Some of the things that are common.
Toni Thompson [00:13:51]:
Them, exit data, hire data, and those Pulse surveys to ensure that we’re addressing.
Toni Thompson [00:13:58]:
The things head on so that the.
Toni Thompson [00:14:00]:
Messages we’re putting out there externally actually.
Toni Thompson [00:14:02]:
Align to the experience that employees are having internally.
Toni Thompson [00:14:06]:
Because, you know, there’s nothing worse than going to a cocktail party or something and someone says to you, oh, your.
Toni Thompson [00:14:13]:
Company’S so great, and you’re thinking, oh.
Toni Thompson [00:14:16]:
Yeah, you think so? But I’m not really having that same experience. And so we try to make sure that our employees are really proud to.
Toni Thompson [00:14:23]:
Work at Muse and that when someone.
Toni Thompson [00:14:25]:
Says to them, oh, you work at.
Toni Thompson [00:14:26]:
A really great company, they actually can genuinely say yes, even if some days they have a bad day.
Matt Alder [00:14:33]:
And so, you know the way that you’re sort of using technology to measure employee experience and improve things as they come up, what else are you sort of doing strategically around employee experience and developing your culture?
Toni Thompson [00:14:50]:
Yeah. So we pretty much are in the cadence of, on a quarterly basis, digging into all of our survey data. So engagement survey data, new hire data, exit survey data, all the inputs that we get, brand builder stories that I mentioned, which is our own technology, we sort of go through employee stories. So we do a deep dive. And then we try to pull out.
Toni Thompson [00:15:19]:
Things that have been consistent issues and.
Toni Thompson [00:15:21]:
Things that have been positive aspects of.
Toni Thompson [00:15:24]:
Our culture that continue to get better and better.
Toni Thompson [00:15:27]:
And the most important part of that is that we actually go around and then have these. We put it on sort of a roadshow where we talk to our leadership, we talk to our management team called.
Toni Thompson [00:15:40]:
MSQuad, we talk to than smaller employee.
Toni Thompson [00:15:44]:
Groups, and we just hear from them, you know, like, these are some of the things that we see in the data. Are these things accurate? Are we on the right track? These are some of the things we want to address. We’re planning to do some of these things via training. Do you have any other ideas? I think it’s really important to get people involved. Where I see this sort of run off the rails is when leaders try to hide the data or they try to think of ideas and how to.
Toni Thompson [00:16:16]:
Address some of the things that come.
Toni Thompson [00:16:18]:
Out in the data that are, you know, not in line with where they.
Toni Thompson [00:16:21]:
Want the culture to be.
Toni Thompson [00:16:23]:
And they try to get in a room and solve it themselves. And I just think that is a.
Toni Thompson [00:16:28]:
Very rapid pathway to failure.
Toni Thompson [00:16:32]:
It’s really important to include employees along the way, even if sometimes that seems sometimes painful, if you’re dealing with particularly a transformational time for your company. But I still believe that ultimately that.
Toni Thompson [00:16:47]:
Will prevail, that it will. It will yield the best results when people feel part of building the culture.
Toni Thompson [00:16:53]:
But the strategy part of that is really important. Like, you have to be systematic about looking at the data, pulling out insights and tackling it just like you would.
Toni Thompson [00:17:01]:
Any other business initiative.
Matt Alder [00:17:04]:
And what advice would you give to other employers around employer branding and employee experience?
Toni Thompson [00:17:11]:
I think it’s really important, like I said, to be authentic and make sure that you’re keeping a pulse on what’s.
Toni Thompson [00:17:16]:
Actually happening in the company.
Toni Thompson [00:17:19]:
I think that that is really, to.
Toni Thompson [00:17:21]:
Me, the most important part.
Toni Thompson [00:17:23]:
Using data, it is your friend. But my second is I have a lot of conversations about employer branding and people seem so paralyzed by it because it seems sometime outside of the realm.
Toni Thompson [00:17:35]:
Of what HR and talent professionals do.
Toni Thompson [00:17:38]:
But I would suggest just do it. You know, find a marketing professional who can give you some advice. Find a tool company like the Muse that does the. Does these things and just dig in. Do it. Start. Because once you start, you start to just learn so much about what’s working and what doesn’t and how you can.
Toni Thompson [00:18:00]:
Leverage your employer brand different ways.
Toni Thompson [00:18:02]:
And it’s actually kind of fun. You can be really creative in turning.
Toni Thompson [00:18:06]:
Your employees stories into content and leveraging your employees for recruiting.
Toni Thompson [00:18:11]:
And that can just actually be a really fun aspect to get your HR.
Toni Thompson [00:18:15]:
And talent team rallied around. So I say just start.
Toni Thompson [00:18:18]:
Start the process.
Matt Alder [00:18:20]:
Fantastic advice. So what’s next for the Muse? What are you excited about?
Matt Alder [00:18:26]:
About the future?
Toni Thompson [00:18:27]:
Yeah, I mean, I just think there’s such an opportunity to make the job experience better for employers and candidates, and everyone’s trying to find the right talent fit. We truly believe there’s no good or.
Toni Thompson [00:18:42]:
Bad companies or good or bad cultures. We just think they exist.
Toni Thompson [00:18:47]:
And there’s people who really genuinely like.
Toni Thompson [00:18:50]:
A certain culture over another.
Toni Thompson [00:18:52]:
But there’s not really a lot of.
Toni Thompson [00:18:54]:
Information out there to inform yourself as.
Toni Thompson [00:18:57]:
A job seeker on what a company is really like. And so that is ultimately our mission. And I’m really excited to see how the product develops. We’ve made some recent talent additions and.
Toni Thompson [00:19:13]:
Some recent acquisitions that I think are really exciting.
Toni Thompson [00:19:16]:
And I’m really excited to see how.
Toni Thompson [00:19:18]:
The, how the product evolves over the next year.
Matt Alder [00:19:20]:
Toni, thank you very much for talking to me.
Toni Thompson [00:19:22]:
Absolutely. Thanks for having me.
Matt Alder [00:19:24]:
My thanks to Toni Thompson. You can subscribe to this podcast in Apple Podcasts or via your podcasting app of choice. The show also has its own dedicated app, which you can find by searching for recruiting Future in your app store. If you’re a Spotify user, you can also find the show there. You can find all the past episodes@www.rfpodcast.com on that site. You can subscribe to the mailing list and find out more about working with me. Thanks very much for listening. I’ll be back next week and I hope you’ll join me.
