The world of work has changed more this year than any of us could have ever imagined back in January. However in the all the discussion around working from home the future of flexible working we are often not taking into account the radical changes that technology and Artificial Intelligence will bring to jobs and the workplace over the next few years.
The implications for talent acquisition and talent management are enormous as companies will need to continuously find and develop new skills as well as managing the evolving relationship between humans and ever more intelligent machines.
My guest this week is Amanda Fajak, Executive Director at Walking The Talk. Walking the Talk have recently published some research on employers cultural readiness for the transformations AI will drive, and Amanda has some interesting insights, and actionable advice to share
In the interview, we discuss:
▪ What changes is AI driving for companies and workplaces?
▪ Digitization versus Digital Transformation
▪ The dangers of compartmentalization
▪ Relationship between humans and AI
▪ What role should an employer play in someone’s career?
▪ Transforming and shaping skills
▪ Why talent acquisition needs to play catch up
▪ The importance of caring and the implications for leadership
Download the report – “Is your culture Digital & AI-ready?”
Subscribe to this podcast in Apple Podcasts
Transcript:
Matt Alder [00:00:00]:
Support for this podcast is provided by Cornerstone on Demand. Cornerstone is the world’s leading talent technology specialist, helping organizations drive people’s success in uncertain times. Their enterprise class talent acquisition platform, TalentLink supports recruiting teams with the challenges of today, helping clients to deliver digital first hiring experiences while guiding them in the shift to skills based hiring and their missions to build more diverse workforces globally. If engaging hiring and onboarding the very best people in today’s environment is important to you, visit www.corstoneondemand.co.uk and get in touch to find out why. TalentLink is the platform built for the smarter recruiter.
Matt Alder [00:01:12]:
Hi everyone, this is Matt Alder. Welcome to episode 313 of the Recruiting Future podcast. The world of work has changed more this year than any of us could have ever imagined back in January. However, in all the discussion around working from home and the future of flexible working, we’re often not taking into account the radical changes that technology and artificial intelligence will bring to jobs and the workplace over the next few years. The implications for talent acquisition and talent management are enormous as companies will need to continuously find and develop new skills as well as managing the evolving relationship between humans and ever more intelligent machines. My guest this week is Amanda Fajak, Executive Director at Walking the Talk. Walking the Talk have recently published some research on employers cultural readiness for the transformations AI will drive and Amanda has some interesting insights and actionable advice to share. Hi Amanda, and welcome to the podcast.
Amanda Fajak [00:02:31]:
Hello. Very nice to be here.
Matt Alder [00:02:33]:
An absolute pleasure to have you on the show. Could you just introduce yourself and tell everyone what you do?
Amanda Fajak [00:02:39]:
Excellent. Thank you, Amanda Fajak. And I’m an executive director at a company called Walking the Talk and for my sins, I’ve spent the last 25 years or so working with organizations all over the world around how you create culture, how you manage culture and how you transform culture, and particularly how organizations can really think about strategy and how they get all of those people in their organizations to align around that strategy to get them business outcomes.
Matt Alder [00:03:11]:
Now your organization has just produced a report on culture and AI and really asking the question as to whether companies are ready and have the right thinking around culture in place for the AI revolution that we’re, that we’re currently going through. Give us a bit of background to the report. How did it come about and how did you research it?
Amanda Fajak [00:03:33]:
Well, look, we’re, you know, we’re really curious about the future of work. And so we recognize that the workplace that we all operate in is evolving rapidly. And you know, last year we were really curious about Agile and what kind of culture it takes. And this time we were really thinking about digital transformation, artificial intelligence. What does that mean in terms of how you need people to think, how you need them to behave in organizations in the future? And so we went out and we spoke to a number of organizations all over the world around digital transformations, digital transformation, the lessons they’ve learned from that and how it can be applied to AI. And, and I think what was quite interesting through that exercise is that, you know, the reality is that most organizations we know are really struggling actually with digital transformation, let alone AI, and really grappling with the idea of what it is and what it can mean for their organization versus necessarily really implementing it at this stage. So that was, that was quite an interesting insight for us.
Matt Alder [00:04:36]:
Absolutely. And I want to kind of delve into some of the learnings that you had from the report report in a second before we do though, just to sort of really pick up on that point. What changes do you think AI is going to drive in organizations? What are the implications of AI over the next two to three years?
Amanda Fajak [00:04:53]:
I think there are, there are a couple that particularly stand out for me. I mean, one is the rate of invention and change that is going to be coming towards organizations. So although, you know, we keep talking about, you know, the world is changing so rapidly and we need to move fast, the developments in AI are genuinely astounding and coming fast. So what that means is that organizations to really kind of capitalize on that, are going to have to move even faster, otherwise there’s risk of market erosion through new competitors. I think the other thing is the implication for the workforce, for the skill sets of people in the workforce and the type of, the kind of career pathing that people have is really going to significantly change. You know, we know that by 2030, you know, nine in 10 people are probably going to have to reskill. We know that around 14% of jobs are going to be automated. So, you know, what skills are you recruiting for? How do you develop people in that context, I think is a really fascinating challenge that artificial intelligence puts up.
Matt Alder [00:06:01]:
Absolutely. And I want to really dig into that a bit more as we sort of go through the conversation. To start with, though, tell us about the, the sort of, the biggest, the biggest learnings that you’ve had from the research.
Amanda Fajak [00:06:12]:
So I think what was very interesting for us as we did this research is that, you know, most organizations are actually probably focusing more on digitization as opposed to digital transformation. And this for me was a big personal Aha. About some of the things that, that we’re seeing. And let me just explain the difference. So digitization is really where you are bringing in new technology and automating, you know, things that might have been in spreadsheets and on pie paper. Digital transformation is really where you are transforming the way you think, the way you operate, your processes, your products and business models to really leverage all that digital technology. And the difference between the two is that digitization can happen in a really compartmentalized way. It can be led by the CIO and it can be about kind of changing some of the technology. But digital transformation is actually a much bigger piece. It’s really shifting the way you think about customers, the way you think about technology, the way you run your business, your whole operating model, the skill set you need in your organisation. And I think one of the big learnings we had is most organizations talk one thing, but are actually doing another, and then are kind of getting caught between the two in terms of not achieving the business outcomes that they’re trying.
Matt Alder [00:07:33]:
To get within larger organizations. I’m presuming that there’s also a danger that they compartmentalize that into different departments and different areas, rather, rather than looking at the digital transformation of the organization as a whole. I mean, I mean, that’s certainly been the experience of some of the companies that I’ve worked with.
Amanda Fajak [00:07:51]:
Absolutely. And in fact, that is the biggest difference, is that a digital transformation is an enterprise intervention. And what we’re finding is exactly as you say, this idea of compartmentalization is how we deal with complexity in organization. But that’s fundamentally at odds with both digital transformation and AI, because they’re all about connecting the end to end for the customer, for the outcome you’re trying to get. So it’s a very seamless experience. And, you know, the challenges that that provides is that, you know, when you’re trying to make a big change and a big shift, the risk is it’s very easy to make small compromises and to kind of, you know, keep one group happy because they’ve got a really pet project that might actually be a good revenue source for the organization, but what it does is it actually impacts your ability to set up end to end systems, think end to end for the customer and really have an integrated solution, which is really, if you’re going to head to digital transformation and AI, that really becomes the core of what you need to do. And it’s a challenge. You know, that compartmentalization versus end to end is a perennial challenge in many of the organizations we work with.
Matt Alder [00:09:04]:
One of the biggest debates that’s sort of been raging for years, but is certainly getting more nuanced now is this humans versus machines aspect to all of this. So, so for several years I used to ask everyone who came on this podcast whether they thought that a recruiter could be replaced with a, with a, with an algorithm. Now, as we’ve kind of learned more about the development of AI and automation and all those kind of things, the thinking around it has become much more nuanced. What is the relationship between humans and AI when it comes to the culture of an organization?
Amanda Fajak [00:09:40]:
I think we are quite some way from humans being replaced by AI. And whilst technology can supplement or augment our work, it doesn’t really replace the need for humans, certainly not yet anyway, and for some time into the future, I would expect so. Creativity, imagination, intuition, emotion, ethics, they’re all very human characteristics that are increasingly important in the future. If we take ethics, for example, the big tech, tech companies like the Googles and the Face, you know, Facebooks and, you know, the fastest growing jobs that they’re hiring for are ethicists, you know, and I think there’s, you know, an interesting dilemma in terms of almost as you become more technological, you almost need to become more human as well too, because the thinking of the humans needs to inform those algorithms. It needs to inform, you know, what you get the machine to do. So you get the right questions asked, you get the right outcomes.
Matt Alder [00:10:39]:
At the beginning of the conversation, you, you mentioned skills and you mentioned careers. And I think that’s really interesting because earlier this, this week, the week that we’re recording the podcast, the World Economic Forum report released their latest report on jobs. And one of the really standout findings for me was they said that 50% of all employees will need reskilling by 2025 as the adoption of technology increases. What are employers talking about when it comes to skills and talent and the implications of all of this?
Amanda Fajak [00:11:15]:
So I think there’s, so there’s two kind of elements of that. One is which really, what are the skills that you need now? And I think, you know, this idea of what is the role of an organization in someone’s career is a really interesting question. You know, is it the individual’s responsibility? Is an organization’s responsibility? You know, one of the big challenges that a lot of the companies we spoke to who were going through Digital, digital transformation talked about was the fact that actually they didn’t have the skills for the future that they needed. So they had to grow those, they had to build those, they had to transition people to that. But the rate of invention adds another layer of complexity is even if you build that for now, so you spend a number of years building a set of skills that will again transform and shape again within the next five to 10 years. So it’s, it’s now a really a constant job to, to kind of reskill and you can’t just buy the skills in because they do not exist on scale. So it’s about what is, what is that skills development strategy that you have. And I think for me what that does is say there’s something more important than skills, which is the will and the mindset that you have of the people that you recruit. And, you know, so the idea of people who are resilient, who are curious, who are creative, who are able to solve problems, who are continuously learning, who have the ability to try new things, almost becomes a critical foundation because those skills will continually evolve and that will just be a factor of how we operate as organizations into the future.
Matt Alder [00:12:52]:
How far away are companies from being set up to reflect that in their sort of talent acquisition activity?
Amanda Fajak [00:13:00]:
I think they are some way away, to be honest. And I think one of the big, other big pieces that came out through our research is actually this idea of caring. And I think what we’re seeing is a growing recognition in organisations that actually they need to be compassionate and they need to handle those transitions very thoughtfully and in a very considered way in order to kind of take the workforce with them. Because the danger is that at the moment a lot of rhetoric is around jobs being replaced by technology. We’re no longer relevant and people are very fearful of the technology. It’s impacting levels of engagement in certain industries because of that, because they think that the companies aren’t looking after them and taking people with them. So this idea of being able to kind of help people make that transition from where they are to the future and then as an organization that you’re going to support people to do that, I think it’s a growing awareness that that’s actually at the heart of engagement, it’s at the heart of our future skills proofing and it’s also, you know, really at the heart of how we can deliver performance into the future.
Matt Alder [00:14:09]:
Do you think that is a sort of a key employment brand selling point for organizations when they’re, they’re out in the Market looking for talent?
Amanda Fajak [00:14:18]:
Yeah, I really do. And, you know, I think there’s some really great examples of companies that are really actively thinking about how they create the space, how they create the time for people to actually develop new set of skills. You’ve got examples of some organizations who are creating task forces with employees to actually talk about how that transition will actually happen. You know, you’ve got organizations bringing in the idea of job mobility, which is actually getting people to kind of step into different roles that are outside their comfort zone and supporting them to do that, to kind of really, kind of accelerate the transfer. So I think there’s some really innovative and interesting things that are happening. And the feedback that we were getting is actually the more we involve people in that process and actually have them have some personal responsibility and some control over that path, actually the better outcomes that we’re getting. So rather than trying to solve all the problems for employees, do you think.
Matt Alder [00:15:17]:
That sort of reflects the necessity for people to take much more charge of their own careers when it comes to learning and development?
Amanda Fajak [00:15:25]:
Look, I do, and I think that there is, you know, there’s a couple of things. You know, we know that people are transitioning organizations more rapidly. We’re seeing this rate of acceleration of invention and change, you know, and, you know, I think it starts back, you know, at school and what expectations are of what a career is and what my responsibility in a career is. And I think we’ve already seen over, you know, probably the last 10 years a real transition from lifelong jobs to, you know, and a company’s responsible for my career to actually how do I create that? And I think there could be a lot more support for individuals as they make. Make. As they make that transition into the workforce and what it means to have a career and what they need to do to be keeping on top of that and keeping adaptable and relevant through their whole career.
Matt Alder [00:16:10]:
What are the implications for leadership? What do leaders need to be doing in these sort of really transformative times?
Amanda Fajak [00:16:20]:
I think there are a couple of levels to this. You know, at an organization level, you know, it’s about being very clear. If you’re looking to digitally transform, if you’re looking to create a business with a lot more. More artificial intelligence in there, that you are very clear on your vision about what you’re trying to achieve and, you know, have it as a vision that people can really connect to, not just, you know, save money. You know, what are we really trying to achieve with this organization so people can hold on to something that’s bigger than themselves. The other thing is that having clear principles of what you want in that transformation, because the risk of dilution is really strong if leaders aren’t really clear on what that is. And they really hold the line together on what you’re trying to achieve. So that’s, that’s kind of at the organization level, but at a really human and individual level, there is a bit about they do need to kind of have the courage to hold people outside the comfort zone and kind of really kind of hold the line that this is normal now, this is kind of how we’re going to operate. But it’s really about kind of having empathy and putting the human at the heart of their decisions, you know, and again, you know, AI means you’ve got to be more caring and you’ve got to put the human at the heart. The best way you’re going to make your transformation, the best way you’re going to kind of achieve the outcome is to have increased caring and empathy. And we’ve seen this through Covid. We’ve seen this through the kind of pandemic in that we’ve seen a lot more caring and a lot more empathy from organizations, and that’s really resulted in a lot more trust and a lot more kind of loyalty from employees as well. So that is a, a great strategy. And, you know, really believing themselves that this is going to be possible as leaders and conveying that confidence to others, I think is sort of a core part of what leaders need to do.
Matt Alder [00:18:06]:
Final question, where can people find a copy of the report?
Amanda Fajak [00:18:10]:
So if you would like to go to walkingthetalk.com and in our research sections, you can download a copy of the report.
Matt Alder [00:18:18]:
Fantastic stuff, Amanda. Thank you very much for talking to me.
Amanda Fajak [00:18:21]:
Thank you very much, Matt.
Matt Alder [00:18:23]:
My thanks to Amanda. You can subscribe to this podcast in Apple Podcasts, on Spotify or via your podcasting app of choice. Please also follow the show on Instagram. You can find us by searching for Recruiting Future. You can search through all the past episodes@recruitingfuture.com on that site. You can also subscribe to the mailing list to get the inside track about everything that’s coming up on the show. Thanks very much for listening. I’ll be back next time and I hope you’ll join me.
