HR is at a pivotal moment. AI has shifted the conversation in a way nothing else has in years, the demands on the function are growing faster than its capacity to respond, and the questions being asked of it are bigger than they have ever been. The opportunity is significant, but so is the gap between where HR is and where it needs to be.
So what does it actually take for HR to step into this moment?
In this episode, recorded at HR Tech Europe in Amsterdam, I’m joined by two guests with strong views on what’s holding the function back and what good looks like. Anna Carlsson, an HR tech analyst based in Stockholm, shares what she’s seeing across the Nordic market and why culture and infrastructure matter more than the technology itself. Nazim Ünlü, a Global HRD and HR transformation leader, then joins me to talk about why HR is more needed than ever and the strategic shift the function has to make to stay relevant.
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00:00
Matt Alder
I had some great conversations at the recent HR Tech Europe event in Amsterdam, and this episode is the second of two featuring the shorter interviews I recorded there. Keep listening for insights on why HR has never been more needed, what’s actually getting in the way of AI adoption and the strategic shift the function has to make to stay relevant.
00:23
Matt Alder
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01:28
Matt Alder
Hi there. Welcome to episode 793 of Recruiting Future with me, Matt Alder. HR is at a pivotal moment. AI has shifted the conversation in a way that nothing else has in years. The demands on the function are growing faster than its capacity to respond, and the questions being asked of it are bigger than they’ve ever been. The opportunity is significant, but so is the gap between where HR is now and where it needs to be. So what does it actually take for HR to step up into this moment? In this episode recorded at HR Tech Europe in Amsterdam, I’m joined by two guests with strong views on what’s holding the function back and what good looks like.
02:13
Matt Alder
Anna Carlsson is an HR Tech analyst based in Stockholm, and she shares what she’s seeing across the Nordic market and why culture and infrastructure matter more than technology itself. Nazim Ünlü, a global HRD and HR transformation lead, then joins me to talk about why HR is needed more than ever and the strategic shift the function has to make to stay relevant. Hi Anna and welcome to the podcast.
02:40
Anna Carlsson
Thank you.
02:41
Matt Alder
Pleasure to be talking to you. Could you introduce yourself and tell everyone what you do?
02:44
Anna Carlsson
I’m an HR Tech analyst in the Nordics. I’m located in Sweden, in Stockholm. I’ve been working in the space or covering the space since 14, 15 years and the last few years I’ve been working, analyzing, sharing, doing different things, speaking about the Nordic market because people think it’s very digital, but it’s not in hr, which is interesting. So it’s like a paradox. And then, you know, I started the global market as well to see what could be fitting into the market and so on.
03:23
Matt Alder
So in all the time that you’ve been doing that, has there been a period of time like what we’re going through now?
03:30
Anna Carlsson
Oh, no.
03:30
Matt Alder
The change and everything. Yeah. What kind of really makes this stand out?
03:33
Anna Carlsson
The way AI has come into the HR market has put, pushed HR to think broader. It’s not enough. I mean, they just, it’s pushing them to understand more about technology. I mean, I’ve been working, trying to move the needle on utilizing technology and data for a long time and it’s kind of not sticking. But now something else is happening. So the pace and the interest has really changed.
04:11
Matt Alder
We’re at HR Tech Europe in Amsterdam and I know you’ve had two very long days. Obviously you’ve had a lot of conversations and seen a lot about what’s going on. What’s kind of stood out for you in terms of things that you’ve heard or conversations that you’ve been in.
04:24
Anna Carlsson
I mean, the thing about how to take AI and make it real productive in your organization, moving from just knowing to doing something. I mean, even when I had one of the ask the Expert sessions and it was about HR technology and data and AI, but what did we talk about? AI. Yeah. And then I tried to pull them into talking about, you know, you need the infrastructure, need to connect your data and otherwise you won’t have anything to build your real enterprise wide AI on. But we’re not really there yet.
05:08
Matt Alder
And I think that’s interesting because we are at that kind of almost that shiny object stage. Everyone is making big promises and talking about amazing things. There’s a real kind of array of different sort of technologies here. But that conversation has come up quite a few times in terms of how do you get this into an enterprise in a way that it works, but also in a way that you don’t stifle kind of innovation. And that’s the big challenge, isn’t it?
05:31
Anna Carlsson
Yes, it is. And I also moderated a panel with two experienced professionals who’s been trying and working on it. And we just agreed that everyone is at the same stage. We have to learn from each other. Those who win has to be open to that. This is. We don’t have a map and. Yeah, so it’s, I mean, it’s. A lot of people feel pressure to perform and deliver, but it’s also at the same time you have to think what you’re doing.
06:03
Matt Alder
You were saying there about the region that you work in, you know, not being as digital. This is a bit of a kind of a leveler, isn’t it, in terms of everyone is sort of getting this technology at the same time. Does that kind of move things in different ways in different places, do you think?
06:17
Anna Carlsson
I mean, it depends on how much, how digital you’ve been before, how much, how fast you can move. I can see that we have a lot of tech companies in Sweden. I mean, just mentioned Lovable, for example. Everyone knows that’s Swedish, Stockholm. And those companies, those businesses, they are moving ahead. They are, they are able to really utilize their teams and try things and implement things. And they have like technology mentality or.
06:53
Matt Alder
It’s like the DNA of the company.
06:56
Anna Carlsson
So they are moving ahead. And I’m happy for that because then we can watch what they’re doing. But it’s also showing that gap to all the rest. And all the rest are at the same place almost even. I mean, large tech companies are struggling with how to really get the benefit.
07:16
Matt Alder
It’s always interesting that on the one hand we hear about layoffs because of AI and then all the AI companies talking about recruiting, you know, paying ridiculous amounts of money to recruit people because they still need humans to do it. So it is interesting. There’s obviously a lot of anxiety out there in the profession about AI and what it might do to jobs and careers and those sort of things. And, you know, maybe that is holding people back as well. What would your advice be to an organization who is kind of looking at this space with in confusion because it is really confusing in terms of what’s going on and just in terms of getting started making those first steps and just really trying to understand where they need to be.
07:54
Anna Carlsson
I give the advice of first. I mean, you have to have trust in how you can do it or feel that secure space. So you need to have the guidelines in place in some shape or form. You know, telling this is what you can use, think about this. But at the same time not frightening. So they are encouraged. So it’s a lot about culture to dare to try things. And those I see succeeding are they almost take it like a guerrilla approach that someone has just decided that we are going to succeed in this. We’re teaching people how to use it, how to test it, how to try it, and we give them some time to do that. So it’s kind of that it’s more about mentality. Of course, they also need to give access to technology and advice on what to use.
08:55
Anna Carlsson
But it’s not usually that hinders the movement. It’s more give people places where they can discuss and share experience. Experience is because it’s not like you can tell someone how to use AI.
09:13
Matt Alder
Yeah, exactly. You have to work out for yourself, basically, or ask AI to tell you.
09:17
Anna Carlsson
How to use it, at least for the personal.
09:19
Matt Alder
Yeah.
09:20
Anna Carlsson
But if you don’t, you also need to learn about what AI can do to understand how you can apply it at the wider scale.
09:30
Matt Alder
And there’s a final question sort of talking about those applications. As I say, some interesting technology companies here, many of whom I’ve not had the chance to speak to before. So I’ve had some really interesting conversations. Is there a particular kind of use case for AI that sort of stood out from the companies that you’ve talked to? Has anything surprised you or anything that you think is particularly interesting?
09:50
Anna Carlsson
I mean, there are some really interesting companies with. In terms of assessing skills, for example, in new ways. We’ve been trying the skills, discussing the skills topic for a long time and it’s like it’s hard to both evaluate and how to put skills into systems and organizing them. But now when we have AI, we can do it in a different way in how you assess people, not only for skills, but also for emotions. And what do you think about the company? And I love these new applications of AI that can make you just say what you think instead of filling a form. So those are the things I love to see here.
10:39
Matt Alder
Anna, thank you very much for talking to me.
10:41
Anna Carlsson
I’m so happy that you could have me.
10:46
Matt Alder
Hi, Nazim, and welcome back to the podcast.
10:48
Nazim Ünlü
Thank you, thank you. It’s great to see you again. Always being super. Good energy. Good to see you.
10:53
Matt Alder
Yeah. Well, brilliant to have you back on the show. Could you just start off by introducing yourself and telling everyone what you do?
10:59
Nazim Ünlü
Sure. Thank you. So my name is Nazim. I’m a HR tech investor and HR BP and HR transformation leader. Last like a 20 years. Recently I’m transitioning from Novartis, which is a pharma company. And in the meantime I’m also supporting HR tech companies for investing and more IPO readiness. Enjoying a lot that meeting with the new productization companies. A lot. A lot of like ideation. Yeah.
11:28
Matt Alder
So we work for HR tech. Second day in Amsterdam. What do you kind of make of the event? What’s it been like for you?
11:36
Nazim Ünlü
It’s my third time by the way, Amsterdam. And what I’m super happy that this conference is every year really that disrupting even itself. Because the idea is HR tech. But HR tech is very interesting concept that in HR world that you’re not get used to. So what is this? And what I lack in this conference is that there is of course the HR tech product companies different diverse HR leaders from across Europe. And it’s a very humble environment to learn new things first of all. And the other good thing as well that you meet with curious people.
12:17
Matt Alder
Yes.
12:18
Nazim Ünlü
And then I like this again, I don’t like this always the family community thing. But this is about a nice community of people that thinking and what if scenarios. What can I do? Because that’s a very good ownership. Because as a HR professional wherever that switched a card off to HR division you’re working. We need to own this.
12:43
Matt Alder
Because it is a very different disruptive time at the moment. I mean technology is turning everything on its head. But you know, everything else, from skill shortages to aging workforces to economic disasters, it’s just all going on at the moment. So what. What’s kind of. What’s kind of happening? How do you see it panning out? What is it? What does the future look like?
13:04
Nazim Ünlü
Let me start with the good thing. It’s not my stuff. Start with the good thing. But let me start good thing is the companies plus the whole world needs HR more than ever. Right? Because there’s always a question why we need HR now. Then nobody’s even asking questions that okay, how to find the in boardroom role for hr. No, think about that. The world has like a different crisis that nobody understands and nobody thinks that a boardroom look and point out that to HR leader. Can we get your support? It’s super interesting. And it’s not HR tech. This is really a big transformation of humanity probably. And that’s even the for me the new future of HR that how did HR leadership going to transform its own company? Plus how to support this the world transformation.
14:07
Nazim Ünlü
Because now the world is really connecting each other a lot because the technology. But in the meantime human is being human. It is making tons of conflicts, wars and disrupting. So in this context, what the HR people are doing very well is building humanistic, sustainable, egalitarian works environment. And I love this. Only problem is the negative part. Unfortunately, our HR colleagues as of course people are scaring. I agree has less appetite and empathy to try to even understand this problem you want to solve. And during my presentation I tried to build this hypothesis that what is look like and not even trying to solve but being courage to discuss Chad, because HR is always like an observer of the company. Right. And with the technology powered environment, the boardroom CEOs now they got the whole insights. Yeah, but who needs to humanize this data?
15:22
Matt Alder
I think that’s the thing and I think it’s the. With this phase of technology development that we’re going through I don’t think anything has ever sat sort of more clearly in HR’s ballpark before. And I think the frustration have is that people aren’t running with it as quickly and organizations aren’t necessarily thinking of it thinking about it as a. As as people issues in the way that they should. And it’s been good to see some of those conversations starting. I’ve seen some of them here. But there is kind of still a way to go with that, isn’t there?
15:52
Nazim Ünlü
Yeah, definitely. There’s more way to think about it. I think the one thing that I was debating after my presentation how now HR is really a good multidisciplinary function but that we need more depth. Sorry more smart people, more strategic people and people not only understand the data who can really think about multidisciplinary style and that to think about. Okay, what’s that even? That’s my big contribution to this company’s problems. And for example I was discussing with one a young HR person, I amazed that she’s investing on HR operations. Yes, it’s a bit like moi stuff called HR core, HR operations, payroll. No, this is the biggest financial element and you don’t want to invest to understand about your real data that you can contribute to a board level big like even the structure for any board.
16:59
Nazim Ünlü
But now thanks to this data digital environment we have it like a time to understand. But of course still you need more.
17:09
Matt Alder
Courageous just from a really kind of maybe a more transactional technology perspective. There are lots of interesting vendors here. What I like about this event in Amsterdam is that you know there are vendors here I’ve not seen at a kind of other events and there’s lots of Dutch companies as well who I always find to be particularly kind of innovative which is interesting. I mean are there anything that kind of sort of caught your eye, any interesting use cases or anything that sort of stands out?
17:34
Nazim Ünlü
I think that I also try to discuss with like a small company who has like. Like a self mate trying to not like solve every problem because that’s also. I’m allergic. If you try to solve every problem I’m automatically allergic. Please be naive and genuine. I respect that you’re going to make business one company. I like it a lot. I think it’s a Romanian company. They build a hologram of like an AI based avatar. I think it’s interesting about scalability and more thinking about the scalability and how that we can implement in any learning. Interesting. You can use that even definitely the learning or that even you can support some of the persons how to have some learning disability. Something else.
18:25
Matt Alder
Okay, interesting. Yeah but it’s very actually a hologram.
18:29
Nazim Ünlü
But you can design and get support because for me even when I think about HR tech product and as HR person as well how to implement and humanize this for everybody. Yeah, the thing about of course even the diversity part. Yeah, I know this thing now the DNI diversity part discussions are a bit like a far away because of the some world problems. But that’s the HR to responsible about how to build fair working structures.
19:04
Matt Alder
Final question for you. Where how far do you think we’re going to get with this year? What sort of changes do you think might happen in the next six to 12 months?
19:12
Nazim Ünlü
You know what, even that last year I never thought that we’re going to get used to about the AI agents, AI workflows, AI teammates. I think it’s not even one year. I think that you’re going to get used to discuss here that how to let a non AI workforce in the team and what is the leadership need? What are the role of the HR to support a team of fully agents and that half hybrid maybe. And what are the leadership conduct behaviors, interests?
19:51
Matt Alder
That’s absolutely fascinating. Definitely. Thank you very much for talking to me. My thanks to Anna and Nazim. You can follow this podcast on Apple Podcasts on Spotify or wherever you listen to your podcasts. You can search all the past episodes at recruitingfuture.com on that site. You can also sign up for our weekly newsletter Recruiting Future Feast and get the inside track on everything that’s coming up on the show. Thanks very much for listening. I’ll be back next time and I hope you’ll join me.
