Recruiting Future helps Talent Acquisition teams drive measurable impact by developing their strategic capability in Foresight, Influence, Talent, and Technology.
If you’re interested in finding out how your TA function measures up in these four critical areas, I’ve created the free FITT for the Future Assessment. It’ll give you personalised insights to help you build strategic clarity and drive greater impact immediately.
Just head to mattalder.me/podcast to complete the assessment; it takes less than 5 minutes.
In this episode, we’re going to explore foresight and influence.
We are on the cusp of a significant transformation in the world of work, with HR and Talent teams currently at the frontline of change. CHROs face unprecedented questions about the impact of agentic AI on the structure of organisations and the continuing need for agility and adaptation as skills go in and out of relevance at an ever-accelerating pace.
The most innovative CHROs are looking in two directions – collaborating with IT teams in entirely new ways and studying how product teams operate with their test-learn-iterate mindset.
Over the last few years, talent acquisition has often been more exposed to constant tech experimentation and workflow optimization than their HR colleagues. So could TA Leaders play a significant role in driving this workforce transformation?
My guest this week is Amy Schultz, VP Market Development & Operations for RPO at Korn Ferry ANZ. Amy brings a unique perspective from a career spanning agency, RPO, and senior in-house roles at LinkedIn and Canva. In our conversation, she shares her belief that TA’s natural product mindset and tech experience well position recruiting teams to guide HR’s evolution from fixed programs towards an agile, iterative product development mindset. This is a fascinating discussion!
In the interview, we discuss:
• The core challenges employers are facing
• A mismatch in AI readiness
• What are the most innovative CHROs doing?
• Learning from product managers to move from programs to products
• TA’s unique influence and tech adoption advantage
• Removing silos in the talent function
• The changing meaning of Build, Buy, Borrow, Bot, Bounce.
• Human / Agent hybrid working.
• Human first doesn’t mean AI last and vice versa.
• What does the future look like
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00:00
Matt Alder
Employers are facing pressure to transform their organizational strategies as AI disrupts workforce structures, skills expire faster than ever and agility has become the key to survival. Chros are being thrust to the forefront, having to find answers to questions they’ve never been asked before. HR needs an entirely new mindset and operating system. So do Talent acquisition teams already hold the key to this transformation? Keep listening to find out. Support for this podcast comes from Hiring Branch, creators of the world’s first soft skills AI. In today’s AI driven workplace, soft skills are the new currency. That’s why, even before the interview, top hiring teams are using Hiring Branch to measure what matters empathy, critical thinking, collaboration and more than 50 other soft skills are detected with 98% accuracy from hiring Branch’s conversational assessments. This is skills based hiring at scale.
01:14
Matt Alder
Visit hiringbranch.com to see how you can start hiring to for the right skills. Hi there, this is Matt Alder. Welcome to episode 720 of Recruiting Future the podcast that helps talent acquisition teams drive measurable impact by developing their strategic capability in foresight, influence, talent and technology. If you’re interested in finding out how your TA function measures up in these four critical areas, I’ve created the Free Fit for the Future assessment. It’ll give you personalized insights to help you build strategic clarity and drive greater impact immediately. Just head to Mattalder.me/podcast to complete the assessment. It takes less than five minutes. In this episode, we’re going to explore Foresight and Influence. We’re on the cusp of a significant transformation in the world of work.
02:27
Matt Alder
With HR and talent teams currently at the frontline of the change, chros face unprecedented questions about the impact of agentic AI on the structure of organizations and the continuing need for agility and adaptation as skills become irrelevant at an ever accelerating pace. Most innovative chros are looking in two directions collaborating with tech teams in entirely new ways and studying how product teams operate with their test Learn Iterate mindset. Over the last few years, talent acquisition has often been more exposed to constant tech experimentation and workflow optimization than their HR colleagues. So could TA leaders play a significant role in driving this workforce transformation? My guest this week is Amy Schultz, VP Market Development and Operations for RPO at Korn Ferry. Amy brings a unique perspective from a career spanning agency, RPO and senior in house roles at LinkedIn and Canva.
03:33
Matt Alder
In our conversation, she shares her belief that TA’S natural product mindset and tech experience. Well, position Tao to guide HR’s evolution from fixed programs towards an agile iterative product development mindset. This is a fascinating discussion. Hi, Amy, and welcome back to the podcast.
03:56
Amy Schultz
Hi, Matt, thank you so much for having me back. It’s always a pleasure speaking to you.
04:01
Matt Alder
Well, it’s a pleasure talking to you as well. Could you just introduce yourself and tell.
04:06
Matt Alder
Everyone what you now do?
04:08
Amy Schultz
No worries. Well, yes. So since I last spoke to you, Matt, I have started a new role and I now work for Kornferry, which is, you know, a global consulting company that probably folks listening are quite familiar with. And throughout my career, you know, I started in recruiting tech, I then moved into agency in House RPO, then have spent the last 10 years in house leadership roles in tech and now have come back to rpo. So it’s sort of a full cycle moment for me. And I’m working in the ops team at Korn Ferry in Anz, which is great.
04:50
Matt Alder
Yeah, absolutely. I think the first time we spoke.
04:52
Matt Alder
You were working at LinkedIn and the second time you were working at Canva. So yeah, sounds like it’s been a bit of a journey.
05:00
Amy Schultz
It has. And you know, I feel so lucky, Matt, to have worked for amazing companies like Canva and LinkedIn and now kind of bringing that sort of experience to Korn Ferry. And I think that more than ever, you know, ta leaders and this is coming out. And the conversations you’re having, Matt, are leveraging partners in different ways now, which I find so interesting. And we’re all sort of figuring things out. And I think leaders are having to creatively think every day of different ways of working. You know, what got us here won’t get us there. And being in Korn Ferry and having kind of the access to the breadth of expertise we have, I think is really interesting for me in how we partner with organizations to help them kind of navigate this ever changing landscape that we all find ourselves in.
06:00
Amy Schultz
And you know, a lot of that is around workforce transformation and particularly, you know, recruiting of the future. And every day that’s kind of like literally changing, you know, week on week. It’s. It’s such an interesting time to be in this space.
06:17
Matt Alder
Yeah, exactly. Is. I’ve never known things sort of move so quickly. It’s quite crazy. So with that in mind, what are you seeing as sort of the core challenges at the moment that companies are facing?
06:28
Amy Schultz
So Korn Ferry conducts, you know, different global surveys at different points of the year, and a couple that we’ve done this year so far has been quite interesting. And recently, Matt, we did, you know, a bit of a 20, 25 kind of reality check in. And you know, 78% of leaders that we surveyed felt that they had AI figured out. However, only 39% of employees agreed with that. Which is, and I think kind of speaks to a bit of the disconnect that we’re experiencing in the world of work at the moment. And as we see a lot of organizations are making divestment and reinvestment decisions, probably under a lot of pressure from investors or analysts to come up with AI strategies. And not surprisingly, off the back of that, we’ve seen 41% of organizations have slashed middle management.
07:35
Amy Schultz
And therefore around 43% of workforce kind of believes that leadership is not aligned. And then 37% are feeling a bit directionless because of a lack of managers. So you’ve got all of this going on kind of at an organizational level, Matt, and then you’ve got the C suite kind of under a different kind of pressure than they ever have been before. And probably CEOs turning to their chro and asking them like, what workforce decisions should I be making today, next week? And then in three to five years, how should we be thinking about the work that humans do versus AI agents? Should I be approving this headcount request for 100 software engineers that have just come across my desk? Do we need to hire these roles ever again?
08:29
Amy Schultz
And the chro is then coming to their leadership team to then, you know, help kind of figure this out and be able to go back to their peers and the CEO with some plan and recommendations. And so you’ve got this incredible like workforce change happening. And so I think it’s not surprising that chros are starting to therefore rethink the operating model they need. You know, what’s kind of the change that they need to make within their teams to not only, I think, level up perhaps the AI literacy and ways of working of their HR function, but then also have themselves structured in a way that best supports the organization through this continual period of change.
09:16
Matt Alder
Yeah, I think that’s really interesting because it’s just very clear that the old way of doing things or the way of doing things that we did last year is just becoming increasingly increasing irrelevant as things change so quickly. What is it you’re seeing the kind of the most innovative sort of cutting edge chros doing? Where are they sort of turning to, for inspiration in terms of how they can sort of rebuild that operating system and Realign their teams and their structure.
09:43
Amy Schultz
Well, great question. And I’m sort of seeing, I guess them turning their heads in two different directions. Right. One way is towards their IT team and I think really working across the aisle in new and different ways to come together on not only the people roadmap from a skill transformation perspective, but also helping to inform decisions that their IT counterparts might be making around tech and AI investments more broadly to make sure that the people experience is well represented there. So I think we’re seeing quite a symbiotic relationship between HR and it. Whereas like in the past, Matt, I kind of look at IT as more like parallel playing, but I don’t think those two organizations cannot converge more and more.
10:40
Amy Schultz
And you know, we’re even starting to see that in roles, right where Moderna recently brought the Chro and then the Chief Technical Officer roles together, which is, which I find super interesting. So I guess there’s ways that HR and people teams are collaborating and working differently with their IT teams, which I think overall is a plus. And then in thinking about how they might structure their teams moving forward, I think that a number of them are starting to look at product teams. And you know, I’ve worked in product led companies, have recruited a ton of product managers in my time and you know, the best product teams really thrive on kind of seeking to understand the problem or the opportunity. They’re able to get really deep into the mind of a user or a customer.
11:36
Amy Schultz
And product teams, you know, they’re expected to really test, learn, iterate. You know, there’s this constant kind of feedback loop and oftentimes product teams have to work quite cross functionally be product manager, working with a software engineer, working with a product designer, working with a technical project manager, they come together in these cross functional squads to build a product, ship a product and then continue to work on IT and map out that kind of user journey. So I’m not surprised that Chros are starting to perhaps think about how might their teams learn more around how product teams work from getting into that kind of product mindset.
12:22
Amy Schultz
But when we think about some of those kind of traditional program manager roles, Matt, that have sat in HR teams where we might have delivered a performance review program or an onboarding program like more and more, right. They’re being done by tech AI. So I think it’s kind of almost a natural evolution that those program manager roles might turn into product manager roles that still sit within HR and rather than have those kind of fixed silos that we’re so used to around COEs, like having more agile squads, I think that’s a shift that we’ll probably start to see more and more. Like, what do you think?
13:03
Matt Alder
Yeah, I think that’s super interesting. And I think the idea of project managing processes and all those kind of things, you know, we can see that’s what AI is bringing to the picture. And I also think that as AI becomes more embedded, it changes everything because the. We do things in a certain way because that’s the way that, you know, the limits of the technology and the human capacity that we have. But if that all changes, then the things we do change as well. So I think we need that kind of redefinition and that sor. That kind of skill set.
13:36
Matt Alder
I mean, putting that back to you.
13:37
Matt Alder
Just in terms of some of the specifics of this. What could TA learn from product teams, for example, and how might that work in practice?
13:46
Amy Schultz
I love that question. And you know, interestingly, Matt, like the data that we have at Korn Ferry suggests that right now, like TA teams, they’re already trialing over four new technologies a year on average. And that’s, I’m sure, probably outpacing the broader HR team in their adoption and testing of products. So I kind of see already that’s a really interesting proof point that in TA, we’re probably far more naturally wired to think and work like product teams than maybe we give ourselves credit for. Right. And you know, something that we’re sort of hearing overwhelmingly from clients is that chros are absolutely expected to be rolling out and implementing HR better technology within their hr teams around AI. But only 5% of teams actually feel ready to roll that out, Matt.
14:47
Amy Schultz
And so how might TA then play a role, given that we’re in tech all day, every day? Right. Our jobs are geared around workstation, perhaps more so than some of the other roles within hr. So given that we’re leveraging AI a lot of times already in our hiring, we have perspective, we’ve got experience, we kind of know what has worked and what hasn’t. So how can we lean into some of that? I would say project management experience, our own perspectives, and just that natural kind of curiosity a lot of folks in recruiting have around tech to help inform and influence our HR peers who might not necessarily kind of know where to start. So I see it as an opportunity for us.
15:36
Matt Alder
Is your TA function fit for the future?
15:39
Matt Alder
Over the last 10 years, I’ve done podcast interviews with hundreds of the world’s most successful TA leaders and discovered exactly who what they all have in common four critical capabilities that drive their strategic impact, Foresight, influence, talent and technology. I’ve created a free assessment specifically designed for busy TA leaders like you to benchmark your capabilities against these four essential areas. You’ll receive clear insights into your current strengths and opportunities with practical guidance on enhancing your strategic impact. The assessment is completely free, takes five minutes to complete and you get your results instantly.
16:27
Matt Alder
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16:30
Matt Alder
And start proactively shaping your future. Visit Mattalder.Me/Podcast that’s Mattalder.Me/Podcast.
16:44
Matt Alder
Are there any kind of particular tools.
16:46
Matt Alder
Or tactics or ways of working that you think might be useful?
16:49
Amy Schultz
I think from a ways of working point of view, like most recruiting teams have been through one or many tech implementations, right? Like if our data is telling us that we’re trialing on average four new bits of technology a year, like we’ve got the war stories around what a great implementation looks like. We probably have a point of view on pulling together groups of people around, really truly understanding what’s the problem that we’re trying to solve. What’s that journey mapping experience that we want to do? Like product teams? How can we bring cross functional teams together to ideate and test and then inform rollout plans, be it change management, be it comms. We have, I think we have a ton of perspective to come together on that with.
17:47
Amy Schultz
We can show how we’re already leveraging AI in our workflows and where we’re seeing positive impact and where we’re not seeing the impact that we thought or where areas that we need to keep a really close eye on because you know, it’s rapidly increasing the volume of applications that we have, for example, or how we’re starting to think about tackling candidate fraud given AIs kind of reduced the barrier of entry to job applications. Like there’s actually so many real life use cases that we have in recruiting that because we’re always like focused kind of on delivery and operational excellence, we don’t always sort of stop to think how these experience might actually be really helpful for other teams, particularly hr. And also it like making sure that we’re sort of closing the loop on feedback.
18:42
Amy Schultz
And that’s something that we can really learn from product teams because they are constantly working off a really iterative feedback loop and things are never done right. And a product manager is really comfortable in shipping something, tweaking something and then potentially sunsetting a product or a feature where when it no longer serves the purpose that it did or it’s just not getting the level of engagement and being okay to sort of experiment and fail too. But you know, fail quickly, learn from it and move on.
19:14
Matt Alder
Yeah, I think there are two things there that kind of really stand out for me. I think that sort of it’s never done. We’re always iterating. It’s probably a big mindset shift for HR because in the past it tended to be where we’ve got a project team to put this, implementation in, it’s done, we’re going to tweak it, but then that, you know, we’ll worry about that in two or three years time when we do it again. So that’s one thing. And then I think the other thing is when we sort of talk about AI and TA and hr, I think sometimes people, because of the automation aspect to it, people sort of imagine this completely sort of impersonal process. And to me a critical role for the humans within this particular TA people is designing that experience.
19:57
Matt Alder
And you know, that’s definitely something that they can take from strategies that product teams have.
20:02
Amy Schultz
Oh they absolutely can. And you know, depending on what sort of organization that you’re working in. But you know that, that link back of candidate experience then with consumer experience and how, you know, candidates can turn into customers and vice versa. Like making sure that we are representing the human experience in all of these decisions and then highlighting, you know, the impacts that might have not just on your talent brand, but even more broadly consumer brand. And I think, you know, what our data is telling us globally, Matt, is like, by and large, you know, people are pretty open and you know, generally optimistic when it comes to AI use in hiring, but they still want to have a human experience and they still want human interaction.
20:50
Amy Schultz
So that I guess that whole concept of thinking about teens in the future and how they will no doubt have kind of humans and agents working side by side. But within ta, I think we are there to continue to kind of put that humanness in those experiences and make sure that we’re kind of then leaning into the broader role that I think we can have play not only just in maybe helping our HR colleagues adopt and roll out HR tech, but also how we can continue to kind of work across the aisle more in workforce planning or talent management more broadly, which I know you’ve had conversations about on this pod. There are more opportunities for us to play kind of a broader role.
21:48
Amy Schultz
And I think if we continue to sort of demonstrate we have perspective, we have experience and that we can leverage that in ways outside of just the traditional kind of day to day recruiter role that a lot of people see us as playing there. We have far more transferable skill sets and experiences that I think can help shape strategy for HR teams and even ladder up to Chro priorities than we give ourselves credit for.
22:17
Matt Alder
Yeah, I mean 100%. I think it’s, I mean it’s kind of a big conversation at the moment from really sort of two directions. I think that CHROs CPOs are looking at how can I break the silos down in the talent function, how does AI do that? And even things just like, you know, the ability to have consistent data across everything through AI kind of makes a massive difference and I think from.
22:42
Matt Alder
The other way and lots, I know.
22:43
Matt Alder
Lots of TA leaders are looking at, their teams are shrink, their roles are changing. They’re looking at the kind of, the broader talent aspect of things. So I think it’s a, it’s kind of a really important, I mean, are you seeing that sort of happening practically with the employers that you talk to?
22:58
Amy Schultz
Yeah, for sure. You know, I think, you know, when we speak to our clients and kind of understand what’s, you know, top of mind for them, in addition to, you know, I think the rethink around HR models, like all tier leaders are redefining their TA workflows right now with an AI lens and how they’re planning for greater automation and where tech can be used for scale equally, they’re doubling down on trust and safety and thinking about interview quality and integrity and then obviously agility and workforce planning. And when you sort of combine all of that, what the opportunity therefore is for that sort of transition from talent acquisition to talent advisory. Advisory.
23:45
Amy Schultz
And I think that there is so much opportunity there for us, which is why, you know, Korn Ferry, we’re having so many more conversations with clients on how they’re kind of transforming or thinking it, starting to think about transforming their future workforce. And you know, we’re kind of anchoring that back to the five Bs which I know most organizations and HR folks are very familiar with around that build, buy, borrow, bot, bounce. But the conversations that we’re having around that bot, you’re far different like that we would be having today to even six months ago, Matt, let alone 12 to 18 months ago and starting to have really deep conversations around how are they equipping their internal folks with more training around, training agents to help with workflows like you Obviously prompt skills with all kind of AIs is just sort of a given.
24:48
Amy Schultz
But maybe six months ago weren’t even thinking about that as a must have skill. Like things are changing so quickly.
24:57
Matt Alder
Yeah, 100%. And I suppose almost as a kind of a final question really, let’s talk a little bit about this sort of future. So there seems to be a kind of a vision sort of appearing and in some cases this is already happening where the future workforce is this kind of mix of humans and agents and they’re kind of working in this sort of hybrid team and HR is having to deal with that. How do you think that pans out? What do you think the future might look like? And what jobs and roles could there be for ta people moving forward?
25:30
Amy Schultz
I mean, I think that the, I suppose that the conversations around the how teams will look like in the future and how the shape will be designed around, you know, work that humans do versus agents and that, you know, in a team you’ll have your human colleagues and also AI agent colleagues. Like, I think that is, that is going to happen. And I don’t yet know of organizations that have started to really stand those teams up at scale, but I know, you know, based on conversations we’re having at kornferry with clients, that those conversations are very much happening, which is again, you know, go back to sort of 12 months ago, they probably weren’t happening with the level of velocity that they are now.
26:21
Amy Schultz
And based on our data and conversations, I think organizations are still thinking about how can we index on those human experiences? You know, what are those things that make us unique that we’re prepared to really kind of double down and invest in to ensure that they do have the human touch, for want of a better term, be that an internal experience or even an external experience with customers, for example. And then what are those kind of repeatable tasks that with data we can learn and get better at? That will be far better place to be done by an AI agent. And I think just because something is human first doesn’t mean AI last, right? Or that something is AI first. An organization is AI first in how they’re building product or how they’re thinking about leveling up the capability within their organization.
27:15
Amy Schultz
That doesn’t mean that they’re human last. I think people that work with me, Matt, will laugh if they’re listening to this and hear me say this. But two things can be true. And I think how organizations balance what is augmented or fully automated with AI versus what are those things that they want to continue to really double down and develop human skills to do will look different at different organizations depending on the space that they’re operating in, the maturity of the organization, the strategic objective of the board. Also. So many things right.
27:53
Amy Schultz
But I but coming back to I guess your question that will happen, that is happening now, and how we in HR and recruiting can continue to represent the human experience and bring our ideas to the table and lean into the, I guess the product wiring that we already have just through years of the evolving TA tech space. I think there’s a ton of life lessons that we can really help organizations to learn from if we kind of bring those stories to the table in really meaningful ways.
28:38
Matt Alder
Amy, thank you very much for talking to me.
28:40
Amy Schultz
Always a pleasure, Matt. Thank you.
28:43
Matt Alder
My thanks to Amy. Don’t forget, if you haven’t already, you can benchmark your talent acquisition capability quickly and easily by completing the free Fit for the Future assessment. Just head over to Mataulder Me Podcast. It only takes a few minutes and you’ll receive valuable insights right away. You can follow this podcast on Spotify, on Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. You can search all the past episodes at recruitingfuture.com on that site. You can also subscribe to our weekly newsletter, Recruiting Future Feast and get the inside track on everything that’s coming up on the show. Thanks very much for listening. I’ll be back next time and I hope you’ll join me.
