I’ve done a lot of research this year around the move to skills-based hiring and skills-based organizations. Having spoken to a large number of employers on this journey, it is very clear that success is predicated on looking at skills strategically, holistically, and in the context of both business and personal growth.
Ultimately, employers need to think fundamentally differently about talent and reflect this new thinking in talent acquisition, talent mobility, and talent development.
My guests this week have just published an excellent book encouraging CEOs to embrace this new mindset to build the adaptable, skilled workforce they need in a way that doesn’t undermine personal growth and champions the employee experience.
The book is called “The Talent-Fueled Enterprise,” and it was great to be able to speak to all three of its authors, Mike Ohata, Larry Durham, and Eric Dingler, who between them have 85 years combined experience in leading talent at Fortune 15 companies.
In the interview, we discuss:
• The current most common talent challenges
• The tension between people growth and business growth
• Shifting from tech skills to Skills, Attributes and Experience
• Skilling for human potential
• Building teams for growth, adaptability, and empathy
• Rethinking Talent Acquisition
• Becoming a skills-based organization
• The vital importance of talent mobility
• Employee experience
• The impact of AI
• What will work look like in 5 years time?
You can get 30% off The Talent-Fueled Enterprise by following this link and using the code Recruiting24
Follow this podcast on Apple Podcasts.
Matt Alder [00:00:00]:
Support for this podcast comes from smart recruiters. Smart Recruiters is your all in one platform for faster, smarter hiring, making recruiting easy and effortless. Smart recruiters are making some big changes, revamping their user experience, adding AI features and refreshing the ui. I know from experience that they truly are a company that really values the recruiter and the practitioner. They understand the intricacies of the recruiting business and this has always been reflected in their functionality and customer support. So it’s exciting to hear that they’re making a bunch of updates. If you’re ready to be part of the future of talent acquisition, head over to smartrecruiters.com and find out what they’re up to. Trust me, your team and your future hires will thank you.
Matt Alder [00:01:10]:
Hi there. Welcome to episode 650 of Recruiting Future with me, Matt Alder. I’ve done a lot of research this year around the move to skills based hiring and skills based organisations. Having spoken to a large number of employers who are on this journey, it’s very clear that success is predicated on looking at skills strategically, holistically and in the context of both business and personal growth. Ultimately, employers need to think fundamentally differently about talent and reflect this new thinking in talent acquisition, talent mobility and talent development. My guests this week have just published an excellent book encouraging CEOs to embrace this new mindset and and build the adaptable skilled workforce they need in a way that doesn’t undermine personal growth and champions the employee experience. The book is called the Talent Fueled Enterprise and it was great to be able to speak to all three of its authors, Mike Ohata, Larry Durham and Eric Dingler, who between them have 85 years combined experience in leading talent at Fortune 15 companies. Hi everyone and welcome to the podcast. Please could you introduce yourselves and tell us all what you do.
Mike Ohata [00:02:31]:
Great Matt, thanks for having us. I’m Mike Ohata, former Chief Learning Officer and Talent Leader at KPMG and currently work serving as a board advisor as well as advisor to executives and do leadership coaching as well as writing.
Larry Durham. [00:02:50]:
Thanks again for having us Matt. My name’s Larry Durham. I serve as the president of St. Charles Consulting Group. I’ve been in the consulting space for 20 plus years now with most of my time spent really on learning and talent and excited to be with you today.
Eric Dingler [00:03:05]:
Hi Matt, my name is Eric Dingler. I am the former Chief Learning Officer for Deloitte and now board director and edtech startup advisor and also a consultant in my spare time.
Matt Alder [00:03:19]:
Fantastic stuff. So the reason that talking is you’ve all recently collaborated on a book. Tell us about the book and why you wrote it.
Mike Ohata [00:03:30]:
Sure. You know, when we kind of collectively look at the context of organizations as talent and learning leaders, we’re often caught in this kind of sense of polarity between like business results and personal growth. And clearly, while we appreciate that there’s a balance between the two and we feel the need typically to optimize around, you know, business results. Right.
Larry Durham. [00:03:51]:
Because.
Mike Ohata [00:03:51]:
Because that’s how we make money. That’s how we get paid. That’s how we afford the careers we provide our employees. And then we speak to the benefits of our workplaces, right? We talk about how we provide, learning how we develop skills. And this is all really understandable, but it’s not enough. What we’ve kind of seen over the last five to 10 years is that there’s this really clear shift in the deals and employees want and really in the forefront. We know this down in our bones. We know this in our gut. We really know that people want to grow, they want to develop. And that’s really a huge driver and sense of energy that our employees have. And their interests are diverse. Right? We recognize that, but we tend to push them, we tend to push all of our employees to that right answer, the organization that they should be focused on professional development. So this book is really a response and a guide toward a better way, setting the context around how we really want to achieve that agile workforce that we’re constantly talking about. And then we slip back into our institutional systems and forms of mind around talent, one built on this sense of scarcity. Right. We tend to think of our, you know, we, we just really, really need to rethink our approach to talent here. We have this sort of, this sense of scarcity. We, we tend to kind of really just think about high potentials and high performance or high performers. And, and we ask the questions like really around that we’re always kind of coming from this place around fearing this war for talent. But the better questions, the right questions we feel like are from today is asking what is potential? Right? How can we more clearly see potential in the people right in front of us? And then how do we convert that potential into high performance or performance that’s broadly recognized by teams in the organization? And then how do we balance business performance with individual growth? So where is, there’s like, what is that richness of professional development and personal growth? That we can do together and then answering those who we really see as going to lead us to seeing all employees and seeing them individually as well.
Matt Alder [00:06:01]:
So you sort of talk about, you talk about talent there and kind of what’s going on. What are the most kind of common talent challenges that enterprises are facing at the moment?
Eric Dingler [00:06:13]:
Matt, I’ll answer that, which is, and I want to build a little bit on what Mike said. He talked the tension between driving business growth through driving high performance and people growth and recognizing and developing potential. And I think that that’s some of the challenges that manifest themselves in talent are a result of that. Right. If you think about businesses today, they’re seeing an accelerating need for technology skills to solve their most complex problems. And they need that to keep up with the pace of change and to be able to capitalize on how rapidly evolving market opportunities on the other side. People, individuals, they want development that helps them evolve beyond technology alone, but includes things like sense of purpose. They want to be recognized, they want to be able to do more, they want to feel a sense of organizational support, support. And that helps them unleash their potential. And at the core of both of those is the concept of agility. Right. An organization wants to be more agile, an individual wants to be more agile. And so as Mike pointed our existing L and D models and perhaps how we think about talent acquisition, they focus primarily on technical skills for today and those aren’t sufficient for the future. I like to think of these as some shifts. So I think that the talent challenges that organizations are faced today are represented by a shift from embracing performance for today’s jobs to equipping people to thrive in a tech enabled future where human relationship skills actually matter more than they used to. Because generative AI and technology are going to take a lot of that technical information and knowledge work. A shift from a role based orientation that we’ve historically focused on to one that really uses skills and experiences and attributes as we think about how we think about people. A shift from a one size fits all learning to personalized development for more people. I like to think of it as how do we do development at a unit of one? And finally a shift from focusing on business skill import performance to also, because we still have to do that, to also focusing on skilling for human potential. If I take a talent sourcing lens on that, Matt. Right. These shifts also impact what we might look for in terms of capabilities, in terms of what we might assess for, what we might think of, how we might even think of fit, what might be the skills that we give primacy to in terms of when making a decision on different candidates. And I think if we address those both in how we acquire and then in how we develop, we’re going to impact retention, we’re going to impact engagement, we’re going to impact the performance of the company because we will be contributing to enabling both organizational and individual agility. And I think when we enable both of those, that’s a sweet spot.
Matt Alder [00:09:26]:
No, absolutely. And I think, you know, I think the thing there is, there is such a big shift, I suppose, just in the thinking for, you know, both individuals and companies in terms of. In terms of talent. How do we need to kind of broaden our thinking and think differently about talent to kind of really, you know, kind of really make this work?
Mike Ohata [00:09:45]:
Sure. We really need to kind of refocus and reframe several mindsets that we have in our older kind of talent models. First, we need to see the potential in all employees. And I started talking about this earlier and this includes really looking at the context for performance, which is really the team. Right. So then how do we think about teams? How do we design teams and redesign teams and the organization with the skills, the attributes or characteristics and the experience that actually going to set that team and set that foundation for learning and growth. And really it’s in that context of the team that performance takes place. What I find really fascinating for all of us is that we often work on teaming and different styles and roles. We talk about communication, we talk about high performance teams, and yet when we look at performance, we tend to abstract the individual from the context of the team and we isolate them. Then if we look at friction, we tend to look at friction in a team as bad. And really friction just could be around collaboration, it could be innovation, it could actually be challenging in that and that place that’s safe, in that place where there’s a lot of kind of open discussion. Friction could actually be seen as a way of actually generating even more innovation for its app and more solution and solving and that kind of good stuff. So then what becomes really critical then? How do we look at leaders and their roles and how we put together teams? Right? So that’s one big change up in our mindset. The second one is we need to really broaden the scope of talent and learning and to look at more than just skills. Right? So we talk about attributes, those human characteristics, right? The things that make us kind of the qualities that help us adapt to apply skills, really to take on new challenges. Right. And we have Those common ideas, we talk about adaptability, we talk about learnability, we talk about empathy. And those really are those human qualities that actually help us to be agile over time. And then we need to. Along this line, we need to think about all the work experiences. And the richness of work experiences is not just about, is, you know, it has to really grow. Right. It has to be about pushing it, expanding not only the capabilities of people. Right. Employees, but also the organization. And it’s not just looking at our employees as tools. Right. So if we only build for skills, and this is something Eric and Larry and I have talked a lot about, if we only look at skills, we’re going to continue to struggle in this system that’s constantly looking for new tools and we’re forgetting about the core materials. Right. Those core things that make up the talent in our organization. And then thirdly, what I would say is we do need to settle on some view of what enterprise skills are for the organization. And then we need to design a workforce education that can span both the business outcomes we need and also the growth that employees desire. And you know, if you listen to us, it’s not an either or. It really is a both. And we really can achieve that. It just, it’s really more. We have to get over this hump of thinking that we’re giving up something. So a lot of organizations, when they think about learning and development, it’s like if we, if we go down the personalized learning path, we feel like we’re giving up on business results. And I don’t think there’s any data to prove that. Right. It’s really this notion that if we can get the kind of, the both of those being done, we’re going to get more engaged employees. And as employees get engaged, they’re going to perform.
Matt Alder [00:13:27]:
No, absolutely. I think that whole bit around skills and attributes, it’s just so interesting. And I know it’s a kind of a big thing that lots of kind of companies are considering. And I suppose on the skills part of that, I know that for many companies, understanding the skills that they, they. That they’re going to need, but also the skills that they already have within their existing employee base can be, can be a real issue. What would you, what are your kind of thoughts on that? How can companies understand, you know, what they have and what they’re going to need?
Eric Dingler [00:14:02]:
So, Matt, on this concept of skills, if we go back to this dilemma that organizations may think they’re in, where they’re having to make a trade off between do I invest in the individual or do I drive the, the business? When we think about development, actually think skills are part of the answer, but not all of the answer and how you can actually do both.
Mike Ohata [00:14:22]:
Right.
Eric Dingler [00:14:22]:
If you want effective workforce planning and if you want to be able to understand and evolve your organizational capabilities, you actually need to be at the skill level to do that. I like to think of skills are becoming a new currency and how we’ve in our language of organization and organizations need to have a command of those, the skills that. And individuals need to have that as well in terms of what do you have, what will you develop and what. Because that also can then inform what you can hire in the marketplace or what you should go higher in the marketplace and then it can allow us to manage proactively and strategically versus what I see historically as we really have managed with instinct and gut. All right, you know, and it can take some work, right? So we talk about, you know, how do companies do this? You need to. It starts with a catalog framework that can categorize and organize skills for the organization. And that’s the starting point for describing capabilities. And from there, you know, you can think about it in different ways are there’s clusters or there’s connections or there’s patterns. But you need to get to that organizing framework that works for your organization because there’s value in creating a shared language and then under. And having a framework that then allows you to use data to assess what you have. And then once you have that framework, you can define what’s critical for the organization and the skills that matter for business performance. There’s two things I want to call out here based on what I’ve seen in my many years of organizations trying to move to skills based construction. First, you can spend all your time trying to define a framework. You can spend a lot of time trying to get to where you think it’s complete. And by the time you get there, it’s going to be outdated. Right? So don’t let taxonomies or ontologies become the shiny object that distracts and I see it in many organizations becoming the shiny object that distracts an organization spending 2, 3, 4, 4 years trying to define it. Don’t make it complicated. We talked about, we talk about in our book start small and high before you go broad and deep. And that to me that’s the essence of agility on another level. And two, if you only look at skills as the answer, it’s insufficient. You need to build your model, your framework, et cetera, to be about skills, attributes and experiences, as Mike mentioned, because that’s what allows you to assess potential. And if you build how you hire and how you develop around those, then you’re going to drive both work agility and performance and you’re going to drive individual performance. And that’s the win win for me, that secret sauce, right? You can hire for those enterprise skills, but when you consider attributes and experiences as part of that, you have a more holistic understanding of your talent as an organization. And you also with that understanding can actually enable the development of the individual, that unit of one. So you don’t have to be the either or, you can be the.
Matt Alder [00:17:37]:
And and I suppose following on from, from that a little bit, how important is, is talent mobility in, in all of this?
Larry Durham. [00:17:44]:
That’s a really good question, Matt. Maybe before I jump into that, I’ll just talk about talent mobility. When we speak of that. For anyone who’s been in the marketplace for a long time, like the four of us have, I think oftentimes mobility is associated with high potentials, right? For certain groups, high potentials, we rotate them through, there’s rotational models, things like that to further develop skills. Where we see the marketplace heading and organizations heading. With the advent of skills, people using these attributes, new ways of working, changing business models. Mobility is one of the key foundational elements. When you think about it, the dexterity of individuals to do something different than what they did before is critically important. So when we think about mobility, it’s not just someone raising their hand, it’s not just a new need. What we’re finding is a lot of adjacency of skills. So you may not have the exact right skill that you need, but you’ve got to move someone from one place to another. Individuals want that same experience. And I think for businesses, the models where mobility is a distractor, is a process and a thought that’s going to have to change. Because if you’ve got an organization that is very rigid, monolithic in a dynamic skills based environment, it makes it exceedingly difficult if mobility of talent is something that you’re, I’m going to say opposed to or that makes it more difficult for you to do your business. Because I think long term mobility is an enabler that’s going to have to be present for you to succeed in the environment.
Matt Alder [00:19:27]:
So I mean there’s, there’s a, there’s a lot going on here. There’s a lot of change. Thinking about a lot of things differently kind of, you sort of alluded to kind of experience There, there briefly, what are considerations around the employee experience in this kind of new model of talent? Where does that fit? What do people need to think about?
Larry Durham. [00:19:46]:
Yeah, it’s a really good question. I think at times when so much is changing, we look for something that’s constant, that we can hold onto. And I think you’re right, Matt, that many, many things are changing when we think about the employee experience. If I just look at research over the last 10 years, how quickly things have changed. Part of that has been Covid driven, part of it’s been generational change in the workplace, those types of things. But when I think about the employee experience, for a long time it was pay and benefits. You know, how much is the pay and what are the benefits? And where do you want to work? Now it’s about flexibility. We’ve seen the headlines, right, of people not wanting to go back to a traditional work environment. Now to compound that or to add to that a change in skills, the mobility that you and I just talked about. I think workers want to develop themselves. If you think about the younger generations that are coming into the workforce, there’s no way anyone’s expecting to stay in a role for 40 years. Right? Or even maybe in an organization for 40 years. It’s very dynamic. They grew up in an environment where you choose what you watch, when you watch it, and the form in which you do it. Everything about their life is very dynamic. And I think when we think about the employee experience, it’s getting paid well, having flexibility, pursuing skill development in the way you choose to do it. Now, for us that run businesses, you step back and you say, how is all that possible? And I think that’s still to be seen. But I think the employee experience is going to demand more of us than less. In the past, that’s just a fact.
Matt Alder [00:21:28]:
No, I completely agree. And I mean, with business and everything just changing so quickly at the moment, how can employers kind of anticipate and prepare for the skills of the future in such an uncertain kind of environment that we’re in?
Eric Dingler [00:21:46]:
It’s a great question, Matt. And I think both the individuals care about how do they anticipate and develop and. And the organizations do as well.
Mike Ohata [00:21:55]:
Right.
Eric Dingler [00:21:56]:
And so how do you create that capability for what we call in our book, skills sensing? All right, And I think, one, it starts with what I talked about previously. We need to have that framework that creates that shared language and understanding and a belief and understanding of what are the key enterprise skills. And then from there, you can create what we call a Basic enabling business process around skills, sensing that that’s about creating a network that can leverage the collective wisdom that exists. The wisdom is in the masses and a governance form that is uses data to then that assess and prioritize. It sounds, you know, fairly simple and I do think it is. It just creates the fortitude to build this process. And if you operate it with consistency, you, then you can begin to create an organizational habit. From there you can start making choices and decisions that advance your strategy. With that in mind and such, you, you can move from being that reactive and gut to that actually being strategic and proactive. And you can build into that process the use of attributes and experiences as well as part of your evaluation. Right. So you can, it’s not just the skills you bring into this concept of these enduring human capabilities. And then that’s what leads to creating agility for the organization and agility for the individual so that you can adapt at the pace of change or even get ahead of the pace of change. But it requires an organizational mindset to create a process, to sense and to use data to assess and make choices.
Matt Alder [00:23:36]:
And I think, you know, we’ve not sort of talked about AI directly in this conversation, but it’s kind of, it’s kind of been there in the background, skirting around the edges, sort of shaping a lot of a lot about what we’re talking about. So let’s kind of sort of take that sort of full on. What do you anticipate the impact of AI is going to be?
Larry Durham. [00:23:57]:
It’s a good question. We’ll have to come back in 10 years and look back and see how close we were. But when I think about it, AI simply stated, will impact the work, it will impact workers, and it will impact the intersection of those two things. Now that sounds really, really simple, but let me explain what I’m talking about. When we think about the work that people do, all the clients that we serve and where we’ve worked in the past are experiencing right now the transformation of work. Now they’re just scratching the surface in terms of what’s AI going to do that we do today that’s fundamentally going to change how we work. So the work itself is changing. That has a direct impact on what do we need talent to do, how are they going to work, how are they going to offload many administrative tasks that they do today using AI? What will they not need to do any longer that AI does for them? And the question is, as always, when you take that away and have them be more strategic in Their thinking. What’s that going to mean? I think for the worker, for talent, dexterity, being agile, open to change, learning new skills. We’ve talked about being a lifelong learner for a long time now. It was kind of an aspirational thing and now it’s a requirement. Right? Because if you don’t, you will fall behind. Talent will fall behind. I love the statement that gets used often now. You won’t lose your job to AI, but you may lose your job job to someone who’s using AI. And I absolutely think that’s true. If, if we don’t upskill ourselves in, in AI, other people will come along and be highly more efficient. I think in our book, one thing that’s quite interesting and we’re already seeing this in the marketplace amongst our clients is the intersection of these two things. What skills do I need and what skills do I have? And AI enabled technologies that are actually bringing that together. Now we think we have, some organizations think they have a fairly sophisticated talent model. But in all the research we’ve done, what’s really fascinating, you’d think it would be something really tricky. The number one question or challenge is we don’t really have a good sense of what skills we have within our own organization. Think about that for a second. That’s not rocket science, that’s just we don’t think about it that way. We work on competencies and other things but when you get down to practical application of skills, we don’t have that. So identifying that, identifying what skills are necessary and there’s a number of technologies and companies working on what those taxonomies and skills look like. The ability to quickly match skills and resources I think is very exciting. Eric, Mike and I have talked a lot about this. I think that’s the promise and the concern from a talent perspective. The promise of being able to put the right people on the right projects or with the right skills or develop the right skills is exciting. I think from a talent model perspective with AI where we have to be careful is that we don’t over index on the skills and devalue the talent right where we become a widget. And it’s just like I need two of Eric and one of Mike and one of Larry and three of Matt. And I don’t think the, the employee value proposition and what people want from an employee experience, that’s not it. And I think finding the balance between the use of AI and the deployment of talent to make it a meaningful experience for the employees and for talent is the sweet spot. That each organization is going to have to think about. But AI is going to have a radical change in just about every way we work, no doubt about it.
Matt Alder [00:27:43]:
And as a final question, what do you hope that work is going to look like in 5 years time?
Mike Ohata [00:27:50]:
I’ll start off of that and I believe, I think Larry and Eric will also jump in as with their answers as well. You know, in five years time. I think, you know, following what Larry’s talked about, I really like to see sort of this, you know, this level of process driven transactional work really been taken on by AI. Right. I do think it’s true that a lot of workers are going to be using AI to complement their day. And when you. And I think it’s actually going to fundamentally start to change how we think about recruiting, for example. So if we get, if we can combine the AI sort of driven AI and enabled view of skills and we can really begin to transform our mindsets around how we look at getting work done through skills and characteristics and attributes and so forth, we’re going to have a fundamentally different model for how we fulfill work, for example. And I think that’s going to be hugely profound. I think in five years we’re going to just be getting going on this journey as some of the capabilities really start to advance. But I envision this world where we’re not looking for 95% skills match to get work done. But 75 might be okay, 60 might be great because the person’s learning something new. 50 might be an okay threshold as well. But for all you know, we tend to hire for like these really high percentage matches. And I think that’s one thing. As AI gets adopted and work is actually being managed or carried out right through AI, then we’re going to see, I think, the opportunity for us to really get serious about how do we redesign work. And so I’d love to see this notion of like the gig economy, right? For the knowledge work could really kick into place where the day job is actually a series of gigs. And I, and I keep thinking back to my assistant Law and her days at intel and she used to tell me these stories where they’re all working on a project and then when the project was done, everybody was let go and you basically had a period to go find a new project to work on. And I still really remember this seems like a long while ago they were looked at on the basis of their skills and experiences. And I just thought like, what we’re talking about really shouldn’t be novel or new. It’s really, I think, a much clearer and more focused way around how to effectively get work done. We tend to create jobs and try to hold people into jobs and think that people should stay in jobs. And as we’ve talked about, it’s just not true anymore. Like people looking like, no, I want skills, I want agility, I want, I want mobility, I want to be able to move around, I want to, I want to develop myself. And you know, employers are scratching our heads and we’re going, why, why don’t you like this job that you’re doing this process 80% of the time of your day. Right. And you know, and attending meetings the rest of the time. Right. So this I, I really envision like there’s going to be a really great kind of shift as we get to this more gig based work.
Larry Durham. [00:31:00]:
Yeah. I would follow on to what Mike said. Matt, you said, what do we hope happens in five years? I would hope what Mike just said, where it’s more of a gig economy working within organizations. Because I think that’s going to do a couple things. One, it’s going to enable an AI empowered workplace, which we believe is coming. We believe people will be more satisfied with the work that they do. I think the real question is, will we be able to get past some of the things that we’re seeing. We know historically that organizations take what they do today and then try and do it with something new. And I think with AI and with talent and with skills and attributes and all the things we’ve talked about, if you try and wrap everything you do with that, you’re going to get a very, very different look in terms of how work occurs. I think there has to be a, I hate to use the word transformative, but a fundamentally different way of coming about what it is you’re doing. If you start with your work and then try and influence, you know, infuse it with AI, you’re going to get kind of this strange looking approach to work. I think stepping back, rethinking how work occurs and really focusing as we talk about in the book, you know, having it be talent fueled, thinking about how the talent can thrive and how the business can thrive using new technologies and talent. I think that’s our, that that’s my hope for where we’re at in five years within many organizations.
Eric Dingler [00:32:37]:
And I would build upon what Mike and Larry have said because I agree with both what they’ve contributed and how work can be different and if the work can be different in the ways they described it right I think then work becomes more fulfilling, right? There’s greater emphasis on personal growth and development. And as a result of a different work environment, individuals are being developed better. They’re able to achieve their potential. And that doesn’t stop in the work environment place. It actually enables them to have an impact in their families and in their communities. And there can be an incredible butterfly effect to this by changing the way work is done and then by changing how we think about that intersection of skills, attributes and experiences. And to me, that is what’s really exciting. Those organizations that double down, in my opinion, on driving those enduring human capabilities, focusing on skills, attributes and experiences are the ones that are going to set themselves up for success in the future and will perform better than those that don’t. And those that do that will change work. And I believe they can change lives.
Matt Alder [00:33:52]:
Eric, Larry, Mike, thank you so much for joining me. My thanks to Mike, Eric and Larry. You can follow this podcast on Apple Podcasts, on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. You can search all the past episodes at recruitingfuture.com on that site. You can also subscribe to our weekly newsletter, Recruiting Future Feast, and get the inside track about everything that’s coming up on the show. Thanks very much for listening. I’ll be back next time and I hope you’ll join me.
