Employer Branding and Content Marketing are two phrases that are being used more and more frequently these days. But what do they actually mean? How do they work together and why should employers be investing time and money into them?
My guest this week is someone who knows the answer to all of these questions, James Ellis from Bex Consultants. James is an Employer Brand and Content Marketing specialist who has some really interesting insights into these topics.
In the interview we discuss:
• The definition of an Employer Brand
• How employers can use re-framing to influence the perception of their brand
• How Content Marketing can be used for Employer Brand activation
• Brand patterns and story telling
• The evolution of content formats
James also talks us through the employers who he thinks are doing this well and give his advice for companies who are just getting started on this journey
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Click here to pre-order “Exceptional Talent”
Transcript:
Matt Alder [00:00:00]:
Before we start the show this week, I wanted to let you know that the book I’ve co authored with Mervyn Dynon is now available for pre order. The book is called Exceptional Talent and looks at what companies are doing to attract, hire, develop and retain the very best people for their business. The book starts shipping in May, but you can reserve a discounted copy right now by going to bit ly exceptional talent and using the discount code FHRINGER. That’s bit Lee exceptional talent and the discount code FHRE20. I’ll also put that information in the show notes for this week’s episode.
Matt Alder [00:01:04]:
This is Matt Alder. Welcome to episode 82 of the Recruiting Future podcast. Employer branding and content marketing are two phrases which are spoken about a lot these days. But what do they actually mean? How do they work together? And why should employers be investing time and money in them? To answer all of these questions, and a lot more besides, is my guest this week, James Ellis from Bex Consultants. James is an employer, brand and content marketing specialist who has some fantastic insights to share. Hi James, and welcome to the podcast.
James Ellis [00:01:43]:
Hey Matt, how you doing?
Matt Alder [00:01:44]:
Very good. Pleasure to be talking to you. Could you just introduce yourself, tell us a little bit about who you are and what you do?
James Ellis [00:01:52]:
Yeah, I’m James Ellis. I’m a digital strategist, content recruitment, marketing strategist. So I focus on helping companies get better about recruiting, attracting and selecting talent.
Matt Alder [00:02:02]:
So I know that one of your key focuses is employer branding. It would be really interesting just to get your definition of what employer branding is. I kind of hear everyone seems to have sort of their own unique take on it, and it’ll be great to sort of get yours.
James Ellis [00:02:20]:
Sure. So I think you’re right. I think if you do a Google search on what is employer branding, you’re going to see every sort of description and definition under the sun. I tend to lean towards the one and only Jeff Bezos, Mr. Amazon himself. He says a brand is what people say about you when you’re not in the room. I think employer brand is what people say about you when they’re not on the clock and not being paid to say something. It’s really a function of reputation. It’s a function of what you do. It’s a function of how people perceive you. Ultimately, a brand is this shared illusion, the shared understanding of what you are. So for example, I’m actually Talking to you on a Mac. I have a Mac, I like Macs. I’m not a Mac fanboy, but I have a perception about Macs being all about really nice design and clean and well integrated software and hardware. And you and I don’t know for sure, and I may be putting words in your mouth, you might be a PC person and to you the brand of Mac is all about fanboys and overly expensive hardware. And you know, there’s, you know, we’re both right. I have my perception. Your perception of the brand are exactly right. But, but there still are individual perceptions. An employer brand is no differently so. For an employee who loves working at a company, they have a very positive employer brand and for someone who has a very negative experience, they have a very negative employer brand. Both are right. But what happens is we end up coalescing and forming a bigger idea of a brand. And so when companies look to hire great talent and they look to focus on bringing people on board, and let’s be fair, talent is the seed from which all growth and innovation stems. You know, they’re looking to hire smart people and attract them. If they’re focused on getting them and bringing them back like hunters, they’re in for a world of hurt. It’s a lot of work and there’s so many companies out there who are great at hiring talent and have the resources to spend any amount of money and you know, huge salaries and perks and benefits and all that good stuff. It’s a tough fight to fight, but what you have to do is establish your employer brand and say, look, there’s a particular reason why people like to work with us. I like to joke that, you know, if it, you know, if it weren’t for employer brand, no one would work for a non profit because why would you? The salaries aren’t as good and the benefits aren’t as good, but they have a mission, they have a reason people want to work there. They’re not just the stragglers of people couldn’t get real jobs. They’re people who have committed to these ideas and these missions and they are just as talented as people working at Google, Facebook and Apple. But the employer brand says the reason you work here is not just money, it’s because you’re looking to support a mission, giving back to the world, achieving a goal or something like that. And every employer brand has some sort of core, you know, some sort of idea at their core like that. It’s not just about who can pay the most money. If it was, this would be a very simple process and Facebook and Google would have everybody and none of us would have any other jobs. But that’s not the case.
Matt Alder [00:04:57]:
So from an employer brand strategy perspective, obviously if employer brand is all about the sort of, you know, the kind of the shared agreement about what we think, what we think about a brand, what can employer do in terms of employer brand strategy to influence that?
James Ellis [00:05:16]:
Sure, that’s a great question. Because first off we have to embrace this idea that everybody has an employer. Every company has an employer brand, whether or not they consider it or think about it, invest in it, activate it, it’s still there. If I don’t put a billboard out in front of my house saying who I am and what I do and you think I smell bad, guess what, you think I smell bad and that’s my brand. For better, for worse. And I think generally worse. But if a company decides that they’re going to invest in their employer brand, that they understand the value of investing in the employer brand, that it allows them to attract talent and compete against other for talent, they need to take a couple things into consideration. The first is what is their current employer brand? Like I said, whether they invest or not, it still exists. And they need to kind of take temperature of what that is and what they stand for and what they mean and how people feel about them. And step one is to start off with a glass door. Figure out what people say about you, former employees, current employees, what do they say about you, what are the positives, what are the negatives? If you focus only on the positives, you’re really establishing a brand that isn’t rooted in reality. It’s not real, it’s not authentic. It’s just, it’s all, you know, candy coated and rose colored glasses. And no company is 100% happy 100% of the time, despite what our pictures on our career site might say. It’s really about embracing this idea that there are positive and negatives. And you know, if you focus on, take Google for example, I mean we might as well. They’re considered the number one employer of choice pretty much in every survey. You see number one, number two, depending. And everybody talks. You ask people why would you want to work at Google? And they, well, obviously they have a huge brand and there’s all these perks and you get free coffee and food all day long and the coffee bar is four steps away from your desk and has six different kinds of milk and you get M&Ms. And you get massage rooms and there’s nap chairs and there’s blah, blah, blah, all these other perks. Now that sounds great and frankly, I would love to work in a place with all those perks. And who wouldn’t? But where do those perks come from? Well, at the original core of Google was this idea that they had this idea about how to search for information on the web. And they were so committed to this idea that they were really hiring and focusing on people who, for all intents and purposes, had no other life outside of work. They work 12 hours, 14, 16, 18 hours a day. They slept at their desks. You know, it turns out that their staff was ordering pizza in groups. And they said, Google executive said, well, gosh, if they’re sleeping at their desks and they’re ordering food in, why don’t we encourage this? You know, the longer they’re here, the more work they can do. And they started to do things like pay for lunches and pay for dinners and you know, build napping rooms and you know, build buses that helped people’s commute. But you know, you’ll notice that those buses had WI fi so that people could work on the commute. Everything about Google is about extracting value from their employees. Now, if you said your employer brand was about, how do I get you to work 20 hours a day and never go home and see your friends and family? I would say that’s an atrocious employer brand. That’s bad, bad, bad, bad, bad. But Google put a spin on it and they said, look, yes, those things are true, but we have all these perks, so let’s focus on the perks, not why those perks are necessary to keeping people happy at work. And that’s become their employer brand. And if you scratch below the surface of this, you know, the perks and the coffee and the food, you realize it’s a tough place to work. And there are people who are incredibly happy there and good for them, and they’re going to be people who are incredibly unhappy. An effective employer brand helps people understand. What kind of experience am I going to have working there? Is it going to be an eight hour day? Is it going to be a 15 hour day? Is it going to be collaborative? Is there going to be cutthroat? Is it going to be a room full of sharks? Or is it going to be a room full of people who are trying to work together to achieve a singular goal? Am I here because when people hear that I work at this company, they’re all impressed? Or do I work here because I get to play with the coolest technology ever. What is the reason I’m here? And for every reason someone has to work for you. Someone’s going to love it and someone’s going to hate it. And those are both appropriate responses because it ends up establishing fit. Some people are going to love working 18 hours a day and some people are going to hate working 18 hours a day. And you want to hire the people who are going to love it. That’s what an employer brand is. It establishes that expectation of fit. Now, if you really want to change it, if you want to shape it, look to what Google did. They knew their employer brand was back breaking work, perpetual work. You never go home. That was the expectation and they spun it. Well, maybe spin’s probably the wrong word. They established a frame on top of it and they said, let’s focus on all the cool things that all that work enables, that is the food and the commute, you know, the vans and the napping rooms and the coffee and all that stuff. Let’s focus on the perks. And that’s really become their employer brand. Amazon’s a similar kind of package where, you know, this is a place where, you know, and I have nothing but warm feelings for Amazon, given they have half my money. I have a 2 year old, so I have to buy everything through them. You know, they were well known as being incredibly competitive, incredibly workaholic types. They were obsessed with solving puzzles. They had incredible mission to change the world of the digital world of shopping and to change all these things. And a year and a half ago, an article came out in the New York Times that said people are crying at their desks. You know, it’s incredibly not just cutthroat, but backstabbing and, you know, almost belittling kind of management style. And I had a chance to talk to people at Amazon. It was really fascinating because I asked them, you know, did that article that was portraying their employer brand in this intensely negative light, was this true? And they said, you know what? Honestly, it was about 98% true. It’s just the frame was wrong. You know, it’s not that we have to work here and we have no choice but to work here. And because of that, we are forced to cry at our desks and we never see our kids. It’s the fact that we are the kind of people who get obsessed with solving problems and they attract people who are obsessed with solving problems. We get to solve problems that you can’t solve anywhere else. We have the resources and the scope to really solve problems that you can’t do anywhere else. And there’s a kind of person who thinks that’s the most amazing thing they’ve ever heard. And there’s lots of people, and probably more people who think that sounds like a horrible way to spend a day. And those are both right, they’re both fair. There are people who are going to love working for Amazon and doing that kind of obsessive pulse compulsive problem solving, which is how Amazon sees it. And people are going to say, no, no, no, no, that’s the worst thing I could ever do. What Amazon gets to do is say, look, those things are all true. Yes, we are very, very critical of each other. We give incredibly direct feedback, more so than most companies. It’s fairly almost brutal. But they, they embrace this part of it. They don’t see that as a negative. They see that this is a way we get better. That’s the way you apply a frame to a brand. So if you really want to change your employer brand, you have to understand what your, your brand really is. The policy changes your executives are making, the hires the executives are making, as well as the culture inside. Understand what that core is and then apply a frame that fits the personality of the people you want to attract to that brand. So it’s about understanding and then reframing.
Matt Alder [00:11:49]:
Now, one of your other specialities is, or relate or related specialities is content marketing. How does content marketing work with employer brand strategy?
James Ellis [00:12:03]:
That’s a great question. First off, I want to quibble with the concept of recruitment marketing and I shouldn’t because I own that domain. I try to claim that space as much as I can. But content marketing in the recruitment side isn’t about content. It’s about activating an employer brand. It’s about saying, you know, go back to that Apple example that, you know, I feel like Apple is all about design and you might feel Apple is all about overly expensive. How do you communicate to people like me and reinforce this idea that Apple is all about design? And there’s an amazing article in Fast Company, I think this week, maybe last week, about the concept that brands are nothing but patterns that are patterns that are repeated. So if I see Apple producing nothing but gloriously designed, beautiful products, it reinforces this brand perception I have that Apple is all about high end design. If they’re always expensive, it was perpetually going to be a pattern where it reinforces the idea to you that they’re always expensive. Again, both are true, but that’s where it is. So patterns establish and reinforce the perception of that brand, content is a way of activating that pattern to show that pattern over and over again. Now there’s plenty of people who will say that content marketing isn’t really a thing, that it’s just marketing with another name. And I see the point of that, I see the value of that. So think of it as activation of an employer brand. How do you get people to think about these things? Going back to Google, how did Google get people to think about not the 15, 18, 20 hour workdays but to think about the free food and the commuter buses? They told stories. They told stories about those perks. They didn’t talk about the reason they needed was because no one ever went home. They talked about it as we care about our employees. And they told stories and they went on review sites and they told people, this is the word we want you to spread. These are the articles that people talked about. These are the blog posts that people wrote about at their experiences. And it reinforced, it built this pattern, reinforcing pattern, activating the brand. So if you’ve gone through the process of figuring out what your employer brand is, what you stand for, it’s not too aspirational, it’s not too pie in the sky, it’s really who you are and it’s authentic and it’s meaningful and it’s true. How do you get people to, it’s usually not a function of how do you get people to know that brand, but how do you align everybody to that singular brand? Because again, all these different perceptions of a single brand are true. How do you get people to agree to a single type of perception? How do you get more people to believe my understanding of a Mac versus your understanding of a Mac? And you do it through telling stories. You say, look, brand is all about work, life, balance. Great. That’s why we’re sending you home every day at 6. That’s why we’re here, to make sure that we’re going to have people who pick up your laundry and your dry cleaning and maybe help you run errands so that you’re working. When you’re not at work, you can focus on your life. And when you’re at work, you can focus on work. That’s one way of establishing a policy that reinforces a brand that can turn into a story that you activate. And then you tell that story. You tell people to tell that story, to share it on social media, to share it in blogs, to share, tell people, their neighbors and friends that story. That’s how you activate it now content marketers won’t say that word of mouth is content marketing, but it is telling a story. And repurposing that story and reusing that story is true content marketing. You think of like an hp, the story of two guys in a shack is a story that they used for commercials and for brochures and for branding and all that stuff. But it’s still a story they tell each other. So those stories activate the brand. They say something true and meaningful about the brand and then allow people who are telling those stories to put their own spin in on it, to embrace it and self identify with that brand. So again, let’s go back to the Apple story. And I’m not paid by Apple and I wish I was. You know, if he wanted to get me to tell more amazing Apple stories about why I love Apple, and I’m doing that in air quotes because I’m not really a fanboy or anything. You want me to tell stories about how when my Mac broke, I took it and I got it repaired in about 20 seconds or you know, in a day and you know, I never had to worry about it. It was all backed up, it was all taken care of. I telling that story reinforces the brand and the more they reinforce it in more I could put my personal spin on, the more authentic it sounds. It’s not like I’m reading marketing copy, it’s me being me, telling my friends and my social networks about the story that is about me, but really reinforces and establishes that brand pattern about Apple. So it’s about telling good stories and communicating them as many different places as you can in a way that becomes a pattern that reinforces that brand promise.
Matt Alder [00:16:22]:
So you mentioned word of mouth as a format of content. Content marketing. There’s obviously lots of debates about formats of storytelling, whether that’s text or video or pictures or whatever it might be. What’s your view on formats and how they’re evolving?
James Ellis [00:16:42]:
Yeah, the formats. Evolving is the right word, I think. You know, it wasn’t more than three or four years ago that the concept of doing video marketing was, you know, only for the biggest companies in the world that could afford it. But now we have supercomputers in our pockets that have amazing cameras that are billboard ready cameras. You can do anything with them. You can take video, you can take stills, you can take audio, you can write on them, you can craft on them, you can link out webpages, you can do anything with them. And thus it’s putting tools in everybody’s hands. The question becomes how do you use them appropriately? Now I’m a fuddy duddy. I will tell you that I don’t like watching videos online. I think videos are, let me put it this way. When I’m online, I tend to be leaning forward on my computer, I tend to be searching, I’m active, I’m looking for something, I’m solving something, I’m reading something, I’m understanding something. When I’m watching video, I lean back. I lean back and let, and become more passive and let the video kind of wash over me. Imagine you’re at a theater, you’re at home watching tv. That’s a different mindset. I see the Internet as being very, very active and thus I’m a lean forward kind of guy. And video doesn’t fit with that. You know, I see video and I think, okay, I’m gonna have to, you know, watch five minutes of video to get an answer that I could skim in text in about 12 seconds and find the answer to. Oh, the answer is 72. Great. If I watch a video, I have to, you know, okay, yes, he’s introducing himself. Okay, yes, okay. Now he’s talking about his product. Uh huh, uh huh. Get to the answer, get to the answer. And with video you can’t do that very well. However, if you’re trying to establish a more robust communication style, if you really can get people to be in a lean back model, like for example, they’re watching YouTube and they’re watching a video, maybe they’re watching a music video and they’re watching a makeup, you know, video and a how to cook something video. And then there’s a video about your brand that’s engaging and interesting. If they’re already in a leaning back spot, video is incredibly powerful. You’ve got all, you know, motion graphics which the brain just gravitates to. You know, it’s that lizard brain just kind of locks into place and then you’ve got the audio, which is a, you know, adding so much the information and so much believability of that information. If you can hit that audience with video while they’re in a mood to get video, it’s incredibly powerful. What’s nice about the web is that it’s not mutually exclusive. Next to your video or below your video, have the transcript or an article about the video under it. So if you’re talking to someone who’s just looking for an answer, who’s just trying to validate an answer or get a response, they can skim and find the answer without Having to slog through a five or ten minute video. But for people who are interested in kind of leaning back and watching a little more passively, you want to give them that option. So to me, it’s not about which solutions. Right. 1. Of course, it’s a lot of it depends, you know, it depends on the audience, it depends on who you’re trying to reach. But I don’t think it’s mutually exclusive. Why can’t you have on a single page the text, the audio, the video, and frankly, a slideshow about this idea? One, one page. One, Google loves that. Two, you can let people figure out the medium that they want to absorb it in because it’s not about. I’m a 22 year old, so therefore I always like to do everything in mobile video. It’s about where’s my headspace at this point in time. I’m on the train, so I have nothing to do. I might as well watch a video. I’m looking for an answer and I’m at work. Video is in my way. Get me the text. So if you establish that these channels don’t have to be mutually exclusive, they don’t have to fight each other, they can be very, very complementary. Embrace that. See how many different ways on a single page or in multiple pages, you can put that content so that when somebody finds it, they can kind of pick the way they want to absorb that.
Matt Alder [00:20:05]:
So this is obviously something that all employers should be focusing on to, to, to some extent. Who’s doing it brilliantly, who’s doing content for employer branding really, really well.
James Ellis [00:20:18]:
There are a lot doing it really well, or at least definitely trying really hard to try new things. And I think you’ve seen possibly impassively, that companies are trying new things. They’re embracing Instagram and trying Snapchat and putting their toe in the water on emerging social channels, or just trying to tell a story that doesn’t feel like a brochure that’s been written by 17 people in a committee. But I would say that right now AT&T is doing an amazing job and I don’t know how much of it, and I know your audience is very international, so I don’t know how much of it reaches or you see, I get an impact by. But here in the States, they seem to be trying everything because they’ve embraced this idea that they don’t know an answer. So they’re going to try everything to figure out what the answer is. So they do everything from Instagram and Facebook Live and audio podcasts. And a podcast series, you know, they, they go beyond the channels, in fact. So for example, they had, you know, they’re doing Women We Admire series, something like that, I think that’s what it called. And they focus on women outside of AT&T in the STEM world because they’re trying to commit to women in STEM space. They’re trying to say, look, it’s not just, you know, it’s not lip service. We’re really trying to say we are committed to the STEM space and women having a louder voice in that space. And it’s, you know, not just about showing how great they are, but saying, look, we’re participating in this larger community. These people don’t necessarily work for AT&T, some do, obviously, but we think they are saying and doing something interesting and we want to promote them. On top of that, they’re willing to embrace the very flexible nature of social media. So, for example, there was an instance, I want to say about a year ago, I’m getting my timeline fuzzy, where some idiot effectively said that women in STEM were weirdos and ugly and unattractive. And of course, women, you have to validate by attraction because blah, blah, blah, stupid, stupid, stupid. But that was the argument. They said, you know, women in the STEM space, you know, they’re just, they’re not regular women. And so obviously women took some sort of, I don’t know, offense to that, as they should, and they said, what are you talking about? And so there was a viral thing that happened where every, where women in the STEM space took pictures of themselves and with a hashtag, I look like a scientist. And they were normal, attractive, generally non stereotypical, you know, unattractive people. They were regular people, they’re normal people. They had real jobs, they were real people. And it took off virally. And so AT&T saw this happening and since they were so committed to women in stem, they said, this is a viral idea that we have to be a part of. It’s not just going to happen outside of us. We have to be a part of it to show that we’re really participating in this conversation, this community. So they actually encouraged internally, the women in the stem spaces in AT&T to be part of this. And they collected and aggregated some of these posts and made a webpage. And it’s, you know, it’s very googleable, it’s very findable, but it shows that they were committed not just to saying they cared about women in stem, but they really were a part of it. And I think that kind of Authentic conversation is what made them different and made them differentiated relative to other players. And I think that they’re a great example.
Matt Alder [00:23:19]:
So if you’re an employer who sees the value of this, but doesn’t really know sort of what direction to go in to improve what they’re doing, or take stuff to the next level, or even, or even get started with content, what’s your advice? What should people be focusing on?
James Ellis [00:23:35]:
Well, if you’re talking about low hanging fruit, if you’re talking about where to start, the best way to start is to start with your actual staff. These are the people who, who are your culture. They are, you know, I joke that, you know, you put 10 people in a room, they will find a culture. They, you don’t have to project one on, you don’t have to label them, they will find their culture. You put 10 sharks in a room, it’s gonna be a very competitive culture. So you have to start with what is true to that culture and who are they and what do they like. So if you’ve built a team that’s very, very collaborative or very, very ambitious, or very, very achievement oriented, or maybe they’re very together oriented, it doesn’t matter what it is, start with that. Start with who. What is your culture and how is it being presented and how is it manifesting itself? So if you’re all about collaboration, ask your staff to tell stories about how they collaborated with other people on the staff. That base level of piece of content, that story that says I cared enough to ask for help, they cared enough to be a part of this project. Here’s what we ended up doing together, that’s where it starts. That identifies the culture. It feels authentic, it can be shared, it can be spread around. You can even chop the story up a bunch of different ways. You know, pull some quotes out, stick some pictures in and use it many different ways on social media and websites. Or you can even use them in stuff like this for podcasts. That’s where you start because you’re taking the raw core culture of who you are and working with that. So going back to the Google example, If you started 10 years or 15 years ago, before they really had a well defined brand and they knew how to talk about their brand, you might start by saying Google is here to change the world. They were here to commit to indexing the world’s information, making it very readily available and why that mattered to them. So you would ask staff to tell those stories. Why does spending 18 hours a day at work, why is that important? To you. It’s not the salary, it’s not the options. You can do that anywhere. Why here? What is the thing about us that makes us interesting to you and how does it connect to you? Again, the brand is a perceived pattern, and you have to just feed that pattern. You have to keep telling stories that align to that pattern. You don’t tell the same story over and over again. You just tell more kinds of stories that aligns with that bigger picture. So that’s where I’d start. A lot of the easiest possible way is just to enable and ask your staff to tell those stories. I think in most companies, the uncertainty around what am I allowed to talk about, what am I not allowed to talk about keeps them from really speaking freely and opening the kimono, so to speak, and really opening up about their experience and what they’ve seen. I think most employees are so concerned about getting smacked on the knuckles for saying something on Facebook that isn’t 100% positive. They just don’t say anything. And the vacuum of communication is no better than, you know, the negative. So you need to allow and in fact, even ask your staff, tell these stories. Say, look, this is the kind of stuff we talk about. Here’s three examples of kinds of stories that aligns to who we see ourselves as a culture and as a brand. We would love you to participate, and we can help you craft those stories, we can help you promote those stories, we can help share them, and we can help connect the dots. But it starts by having them tell their stories. And it can be on Facebook and Twitter. It can be on Instagram, it can be on their blogs. It can be, again, word of mouth. It can be anything. But start with your staff. They are the bedrock from which you know, the bedrock on which your entire employer brand stands.
Matt Alder [00:26:54]:
So where can people find you if they want to, if they want to.
James Ellis [00:26:57]:
Know more, if they’re not sick of hearing me talk already? Yeah, I am on Twitter at the war for talent. That’s the war for talent. And then I have a podcast much like Matt’s that’s a little more goofy and a little more just me, called the Talentcast. You can find it on anywhere you find podcasts. And I’m currently working for Bex consultants. We do employer, brand and hiring training here in Chicago.
Matt Alder [00:27:19]:
James, thank you very much for talking to me.
James Ellis [00:27:21]:
A pleasure. Thanks, Matt.
Matt Alder [00:27:23]:
My thanks to James Ellis. You can subscribe to this podcast on itunes, on Stitcher, or via your podcasting app of choice. Just search for recruiting future. You can find all the past episodes@www.rfpodcast.com on that site. You can also subscribe to the mailing list and find out more about Working with me. Thanks very much for listening. I’ll be back next week and I hope you’ll join me.
