Digital transformation remains a crucial issue for most organisations. The pandemic has exponentially accelerated the pace of change, with companies scrambling to supply products and services to meet the demands of our increasingly digital economy.
The need for digital skills and continuing issues of gender diversity are two of the implications for talent acquisition. TA leaders must have a strong understanding of the evolving digital landscape.
My guest this week is Bev White, CEO of Harvey Nash. Harvey Nash have a long starting reputation for providing market intelligence via their annual CIO survey. This year the research has been refocused as the Digital Leadership Report. Bev has important insights to share around the role of talent in the future development of the digital economy.
In the interview, we discuss:
• The background to the Digital Leadership Report
• Key findings
• Who are the digital leaders within organisations?
• The unacceptably slow growth in the increase of females in digital leadership positions
• The rise of flexible and hybrid working and why this is cause for optimism
• What can employers do to improve gender diversity?
• Creating systemic, sustainable change
• Are digital skill shortages holding back growth?
• Investing in apprenticeships
• The vital importance of reskilling
• Opening up new talent pools via remote working
• How is recruiting evolving, and what role is technology playing
• What can we expect in 2022
Listen to this podcast in Apple Podcasts.
Interview transcript:
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Matt Alder (Intro) (1m 5s):
Hi there, this Matt Alder. Welcome to Episode 397 of the Recruiting Future Podcast. Digital Transformation remains a critical issue for most organizations. The pandemic has exponentially accelerated the pace of change with companies scrambling to supply products and services to meet the demands of our increasingly digital economy. The need for digital skills and continuing issues around gender diversity are just two of the implications for talent acquisition. It’s important that TA leaders have a strong understanding of the evolving digital landscape. My guest this week is Bev White, CEO at Harvey Nash.
Matt Alder (Intro) (1m 48s):
Harvey Nash has a long-standing reputation for providing market intelligence by their annual CIO survey. This year, the research has been refocused as the digital leadership report. Bev has important insights to share around the role of talent in the future development of the digital economy.
Matt Alder (2m 7s):
Hi, Bev, and welcome to the podcast.
Bev White (2m 9s):
Thank you very much, Matt. It’s an absolute pleasure to join you.
Matt Alder (2m 12s):
Well, it’s an absolute pleasure to have you on the show. Could you just introduce yourself and tell everyone what you do?
Bev White (2m 20s):
Yeah. Absolutely. So, I’m Bev White. I’m the Group CEO for the Harvey Nash Group, which is a technology solutions business. We’re in from Vietnam, where we have around 2000 people and in various other locations around the world. But very big in terms of writing code, robotics, AI, and so on. Some really cool stuff. And we’re also a very proud tech recruitment, as well business. So, we’ve been doing those things for 20 plus years and 33 years, respectively.
Matt Alder (2m 58s):
Amazing. Now, we’ve known each other for quite some time. And I think, lots of things that I want to talk to you about round the work that Harvey Nash is doing. Before we do though, I just tell everyone a little bit about your backstory and how you got to do what you do now.
Bev White (3m 12s):
Yeah, thanks, man. You’re right. I’m really pleased to have known you this long. I think I started my career actually as a technologist. And I remember, you know, when I did my degree course, being one of a very few small number of women. And as I started my career, comfortable enough, some moments not so comfortable. But you know, ploughed on, because it’s an industry that I was really fascinated with. And I’ve endlessly been fascinated about what technology can do to improve lives. And I think that’s really the importance that I place on tech.
Bev White (3m 53s):
So, I spent more than half my career as a technologist. And then I moved more into management. So, moved to Penna, where you and I first met, I think. And there from that business, which I absolutely loved, passionate about 14 plus years there, moved into a very different role working for a global business called the GI Group, which is an Italian business. And here actually, I’ve learned so much about Lucro Recruitment as well, which is where I’ve never worked in as well as all of the other things I was familiar with. That was a new space for me.
Bev White (4m 34s):
And I have to say, I think I grew so much as an individual working in that space. I think it was amazing. And that led me eventually to the Harvey Nash Group, which I am deeply in love with these businesses. I smile every day to found my good fortune to work here. And that sounds cheesy, I know, but I’m smiling here. I don’t know if you can hear it in my voice. As I say it. You know, it’s all about the people you work with.
Matt Alder (5m 4s):
No, absolutely. I can hear just how much you’re enjoying working there and doing the amazing things that you’re doing. One of the things that Harvey Nash has been in the news for recently was the publication of your latest digital leadership report. Now, I know that this has evolved from something that you’ve been doing for a number of years. Really want to kind of dig into some of the really, really interesting findings that that were in that. But before we do, just give us a little bit of background about the report and why you produce that.
Bev White (5m 36s):
Yeah, thank you. So, this is our 23rd year, and up until this year, it was known as the CIO survey. And we’ve been collecting data around spend. So, is it growing or shrinking? In the coming years we speak to CTO CIOs traditionally, over that time about where they’re investing, how they see, you know, that money is going to be spent to transform their businesses. What kind of skills are growing? Which skills are shrinking? So really a rich tapestry of data, and tracking gender diversity, and it’s really important sector as well. This year, we changed it, the title to Digital Leader Report.
Bev White (6m 18s):
And the reason for that is because there are now so many more individuals, different job titles that sit within organizations that really aren’t digital leaders. So, the CMO very much deploying technology, to help with the marketing and the development of brand and so on. You know, the sales director, very much involved as a digital leader, and, you know, thinking about the evolution of services. So, that’s kind of what brought us to changing the overall name of the report.
Matt Alder (6m 50s):
What were the kind of real headline findings? Because we’re obviously in a very unusual time as, hopefully we come out of the pandemic, but the pandemic has fundamentally changed the way that companies are thinking about digital and their digital strategies. How is that reflected in the results?
Bev White (7m 9s):
Yeah, so I think it’s been some very interesting key elements have come out this year in particular. So, as we went into the first year of the pandemic, unsurprisingly, there was a big uptick in spend in tech as organizations scrambled to enable their employees or employees to work from home, but also to open up new channels to get services to end customers. So, you think of the end your favorite local restaurant Matt, and you know, how you probably could only enjoy their food and the wine and so on if you went book to table, or suddenly, you couldn’t do that.
Bev White (7m 57s):
And they very quickly opened up channels to enable them to deliver either, you know, a fantastic box of high-quality products, and a recipe book or a link to an online video on how to be your own chef and your own kitchen. Or, perhaps even better for some, You know, actually the end product to your home. And so, they scrambled. Now you think about every part of society, your doctor. So, suddenly, instead of having to queue to go and see them, you could have a video, call with them, and get them much faster. So, you know, every element of society switched on new services in new ways.
Bev White (8m 38s):
And so that spiked the huge demand in spend, but also in skills. So, it was thought when we asked the survey last year, well, that’s a spike and it will actually normalize going into this year, absolutely not. So, the spend is continuing to grow. The demand for skills are continuing to grow. And again, I’m not surprised by that when you think about, you know, how much it’s caused people businesses to think about the shape of their business, the shape of their services? It’s actually turned us into a much more innovative group of businesses across the world where we’re having to really think and reimagine our services.
Bev White (9m 21s):
And it’s a great opportunity to do that. So, for the first time, in many, many years, new products and services is in the top three wish list and demand list for people’s time when you’re a digital leader. And then I think, a little bit of pressingly, but I’m going to be optimistic about this. Depressingly the gender diversity question about the percentage of women leaders in Tech has only moved 1%. And that’s over a 10-year period. So, I find that somewhat depressing. But again, if you dig into the data well last year, women still are the primary care.
Bev White (10m 2s):
So, I know you have a little one at home as well. So, I’m pretty sure you’re a hands-on parent, as many, many men are, too. But nonetheless, the primary career being still women. So now the children are at home, and serve maybe at nursery or at school. If they’re at school, you’re having to think about, you know, now being a teacher, as well as doing your job and taking care of the family. Or if a little one, you know, that was normally a nursery. You can’t sit them in front of a school because they off you go them while you get on with your job. So quite a few women declared themselves out and said, “I can’t do all of this.
Bev White (10m 43s):
I have to actually focus on my family. So, we lost people from the industry. I’m going to just add one more thing to this, which is I’m optimistic because hybrid working I think will enable more women to stay longer and take more senior roles in the coming years. So, I’m optimistic that we won’t see a 1% change, we’ll see a significant raise in that level over the coming two, three years.
Matt Alder (11m 9s):
Do you think that’s going to take that long? Is there a sort of a delay in built within the processes who were?
Bev White (11m 15s):
Yeah, I mean, again, you know, if you think about it, you know, if we’ve moved 1%, we move 1% a year, none of us are going to be on this planet to see, you know, anywhere near equity on these moves at this speed. But even with hybrid working, you need to create systemic changes to show back in schools, why tech is a great place for young girls to, you know, think about building their careers as well as young boys. But nonetheless, you know, you have to think about how long it’s going to take to bring people all the way through.
Matt Alder (11m 56s):
Obviously, it is depressing that it’s changing so slowly. And as you say, there’s a lot of society issues, political issues, and also education system issues that sit with this. But obviously, employers play a massive part in this as well. What’s your advice been to employers, to help them understand the steps that they need to take to improve the gender diversity within digital leadership?
Bev White (12m 21s):
Thanks for asking that, Matt. I think I’d start with my own business. You always look to your own self. But I think it’s about, first of all, you know, really being honest. Don’t do things that are tick box exercises. You have to create systemic change that is sustainable. And so that means, you know, probably changing 100 things, not just one or two things. So, yeah, culturally, asking us ourselves the question asking our people, “You know, what do you like about our culture? What would keep you in our business? What do you want more of? What you want less of and really listen and make change happen?” I think being very flexible.
Bev White (13m 4s):
As long as you get the outputs you need from somebody, how they do it really, is less important. And so really meaning that and being flexible about the way people can do that do their work, I think will keep women in the industry as well. And then I think culturally making sure, you know, that you call out poor behavior, and really deal with it. So, you know, you’re showing people that you’re serious about change, and that, you know, they are valued, and you do want them. And it’s not about saying, “Oh, well, we want x percent of our workforce being women.” We want true lasting diversity.
Matt Alder (13m 49s):
Absolutely. I couldn’t agree with you more. Just in terms of digital skills. Obviously, huge demand from employers because of the way that their businesses are changing. But as you say, industries are being digitally transformed that we thought we would never be digitally transformed and we’re doing things digitally that we probably couldn’t have even imagined. A couple of years ago, it’s inevitable that post pandemic lots of those things. They’re not going to change back. But this is the path that we’re going on. How much of an issue is the shortage of a digital skills for employers? Is that something that’s holding the digital economy back?
Matt Alder (14m 30s):
And specifically, what can employers do to help situation?
Bev White (14m 33s):
Yeah, so, answering the question, or is it holding us back. Yes. We’re hearing a lot now significantly that digital leaders are genuinely concerned that it is slowing them down. And a time when they want to peak out, this is not great. So, what’s being done is a number of things. This coming year, there’s expected to be a big uptick in investment, particularly in the UK of apprenticeships. So, this is great. Not simply and only taking gradual intakes but actually taking school leavers, college leavers, to bring them through a training experience and give them hands on work experience.
Bev White (15m 21s):
So, grow your own skills, if you’d like. Secondly, about rescaling. So, anybody in the tech industry will know that about 10% of our skills each year become redundant Tech’s moving at such a speed. So, we need to rescale ourselves and organizations need to rescale their employees to keep skills relevant and growing. So, there’s a lot of investment in doing that, as well, which is really important. And I think there is about the development space, in general, really listening to what people need and want, I think, is key. And I think also, as I said earlier, you know, really paying attention to the culture, being flexible as to where people can work from.
Bev White (16m 5s):
Now, this is interesting, because it used to be that when you were searching for skills, you were looking at a radius around your head office or your place of work. You know, I need somebody that doesn’t have to travel more than 20-30 kilometers to get to my office, and I need them in the office to do their work. That’s no longer true, especially in tech. So, people can work from a variety of locations. Matt, I know you’re at the far end of the country up in lovely Scotland.
Matt Alder (16m 38s):
Absolutely.
Bev White (16m 38s):
And yet, you know, you’re a leader that works across the world. And that’s true for most people in tech. So, the flexibility of where our people are is enabling us to close those gaps faster as well.
Matt Alder (16m 55s):
Even around the recruitment industry for sort of a large proportion of your career, and you’re obviously very passionate about technology and moving that forward. We’re obviously seeing just a totally unprecedented time in recruiting at the moment with technology really changing the way that we do recruiting and making all kinds of interesting things possible. What’s your view on the way that recruitment is evolving? And what is it that technology’s changing? And how do you think that might pan out?
Bev White (17m 27s):
I think about this a lot. I’m sure you do, too. For sure, there are more tools available to us now to help us really reach a broader and more diverse population when we think about searching for candidates, and freelancers, and so on. And so that’s fantastic equally though. And I was at an event yesterday where I heard a software, fantastic software provider, talking about how frustrating it was that even today, recruiters do invest in some fantastic platforms, but don’t take the time to bring their people with them on the journey, so they become underutilized.
Bev White (18m 13s):
And also, as they develop new features to software, then go back and make sure that they’re getting the best from those tools. So, it was a timely reminder to myself, especially coming from a technology background as I do to actually make sure we do that inside our own business. When you’ve invested, you want to make sure that you’re giving your candidates, your clients, your contractors, the very best experience they can. So, you know, making sure that working with us is a pleasure and not a chore. So, I think there are some simple things that we can do to go back and do some of the basics better. And then I think there is, you know, new ways of reaching and curating future talent for organizations.
Bev White (18m 58s):
I think direct sourcing is a fantastic way of doing that being the intermediary if you like, and helping kind of tee up future. So, sources of fantastic talent for organizations maybe, you know, not necessarily going to be deployed now. But maybe in a year or twos time. You know, building out that brand profile and connecting up the organization and the contractor and the candidate. It’s a long way for this to go. And I don’t think it’s a threat. I think technology is actually not a threat. If you think back and I was thinking about this recently, you know, to the time when job boards first came out. I remember people quite extensively in recruitment saying, “Oh no, this beginning of the end.
Bev White (19m 44s):
We’ll be out of work, that job boards will replace us. Companies will just place their jobs on the job boards, and the candidates will go direct.” And we know that has not been the case. In fact, the biggest users of job boards are recruitment firms themselves. So, you know, I think technology is an absolute opportunity to be even more accessible, both for clients and for us to reach great talent.
Matt Alder (20m 12s):
Final question. We talked a little bit about the future there, but I suppose to look into the shorter-term future. So, on your radar, we’re recording this is sort of the end of November 2021. What’s on your radar for 2022? What are we going to be talking about? What going to be your sort of main focus?
Bev White (20m 33s):
I mean, for sure, we need to address the skills gap in all its forms. As I said earlier, I think we have an imperative to really go out and help schools as well. Think about, you know, what kind of things they need to be preparing children for when they come to the job market? I think we have a responsibility to work alongside government to make sure that the school’s agenda, the curriculum, if you like is keeping pace with industry. So, I’m thinking about that more, actually, so that we can help. And the diversity element, the agenda element that we talked about earlier.
Bev White (21m 12s):
You know, I think we need to be doing some really tangible things next year. And then I think cybersecurity is really interesting for us. You know, I think you will have seen this out three weeks ago. There was a report that said in the UK alone, there are 10,000, open cybersecurity roles. And yet when cybersecurity experts were spoken to, in jobs, four out of five were thinking about, was this where they wanted to remain? Because actually they were getting burnt out. There weren’t enough people alongside them, and the risks were growing. And so, it no longer felt like a great place to be. So, I want to focus more there as well and seeing how we can help organizations, overcome the challenge when they’re continuing to develop their services in a digital way.
Matt Alder (22m 4s):
Bev, thank you very much for talking to me.
Bev White (22m 8s):
Thank you, Matt.
Matt Alder (22m 9s):
My thanks to Bev White. You can subscribe to this podcast in Apple Podcasts, on Spotify, or via your podcasting app of choice. Please also follow the show on Instagram. You can find us by searching for Recruiting Future. You can search all the past episodes at recruiting future.com. On that site, you can also subscribe to the mailing list to get the inside track about everything that’s coming up on the show. Thanks very much for listening.
Matt Alder (22m 56s):
I’ll be back next time, and I hope you’ll join me.
