Over the last few years, there has been a global shakeup in the way companies recruit future talent to their organizations. Many employers are now extending their search beyond university and college graduates to explore more diverse talent pools. But what is the best way to attract and assess future talent in 2020?
My guest this week is Cameron Sorsby, CEO of Praxis, a six-month start-up boot camp aimed at skilling entry-level talent. Cameron has some brilliant insights to share on how companies should be attracting and assessing their future talent.
In the interview, we discuss:
- The evolving challenges of entry-level hiring
- Framing opportunities in the right way to engage with the target audience
- Taking a long term approach to recruiting
- How assessment is changing
- Candidate attitudes to recruiting technology
- The rise of boot camps
- The Future of entry-level hiring
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Transcript:
Matt Alder [00:00:00]:
Support for this podcast comes from Social Talent. Social Talent is the training platform for hiring teams, giving you the knowledge and skills you need to find, hire and develop great talent. Designed for everyone involved in the hiring process, this market leading platform provides training through a comprehensive library of video content delivered by the world’s best hiring experts. Trusted by the likes of IBM, intel and Siemens. Social Talent has trained over 80,000 people across 100 countries and a thousand organizations. Last year alone, they enabled a million hires worldwide. Find out more@www.socialtalent.com. that’s www.socialtalent.com.
Matt Alder [00:01:11]:
Hi everyone, this is Matt Alder. Welcome to episode 243 of the Recruiting Future podcast. Over the last few years there’s been a global shakeup in the way that companies recruit future talent to their organizations. Many employers are now extending their search way beyond university and college graduates to explore more diverse pools of talent. But what is the best way to attract and assess Future talent in 2020? My guest this week is Cameron Sorsby, CEO of Praxis, a six month startup boot camp aimed at upskilling entry level talent. Cameron has some brilliant insights to share on how companies should be attracting and assessing their future talent. Enjoy the interview. Hi Cameron and welcome to the podcast.
Cameron Sorsby [00:02:02]:
Hey Matt, how’s it going?
Matt Alder [00:02:03]:
An absolute pleasure to have you on the show. Could you just introduce yourself and tell everyone what you do?
Cameron Sorsby [00:02:08]:
Yeah, absolutely. Great to be here Matt. I am the CEO of Praxis. We are a six month startup boot camp and our goal is to help young driven people launch their careers without relying on degrees and helping growing, growing companies find the best entry level talent.
Matt Alder [00:02:26]:
Fantastic stuff. And I think the whole kind of boot camp approach is really interesting and we’ll come back and sort of talk about that later in our conversation. Before we do though, obviously the work that you do must give you some really interesting insights into the challenges that employers face recruiting entry level talent. What kind of are those challenges and how have they changed in the last few years?
Cameron Sorsby [00:02:51]:
Yeah, so through the program we work very closely with startups and obviously specifically on entry level recruiting for sales, marketing, customer service, kind of those more generalist, non technical types of roles. And I think the biggest problem, and there’s a few things that kind of fall under this umbrella, but the broadest problem I would say, is that it is really difficult to hire with confidence at that entry level because you don’t have a lot of information about if a candidate is going to be successful. The kind of biggest signal that you have from candidates at that stage is, you know, typically their, their education status and maybe some minimal work experience. And that’s just not a lot to go off of. And, and it feels like to me, the companies that have trouble, they, they have a sense of their hiring in the dark for, for these types of positions. And then the second thing is I think it’s, it’s hard to attract the right type of person. I think companies have a difficult time framing and selling why these entry level opportunities are actually great, like career starting points for the right person.
Matt Alder [00:04:25]:
I mean, that makes perfect sense and I think it’s probably worth sort of digging into both of those in a bit more detail. Starting with the attraction bit. You sort of mentioned that the employers have difficulty sort of framing the opportunity in a way that presumably engages with this particular, particular target audience. Obviously you, you attract a lot of people onto your program. What sort of techniques and strategies do you use to, to, to kind of really engage with this kind of entry level audience?
Cameron Sorsby [00:04:55]:
Sure. So, and, and I think, you know, this what I’m about to say, like I think companies can take the same approach even though obviously like they’re hiring employees where we’re trying to recruit customers for our bootcamp. But you know, essentially we’re, we’re looking for the same outcome as is filling these types of entry level positions. And I think taking a very strong sales based approach, like you have to put yourself in the candidate’s shoes. So when we’re recruiting participants for the program, you know, they come from all walks of life and we have different, you know, marketing channels, et cetera. But at the end of the day, our pitch to them is that our goal is to help you become a better version of yourself and launch your career successfully. And I think companies and the companies that we work with, that our participants are most excited to work for, they do the best job of communicating why coming in and doing more of that like entry level grunt work at our company is going to, you know, be a fantastic opportunity for you to grow personally and professionally. Young people want to, they want to paint a vision for their, for their own future and they want to be excited about how they’re going to grow, what they’re going to get out of these opportunities. Whereas I think the typical recruiting and you know, job posting that you see out there, it’s, it’s giving you a list of pretty uninspiring bullet points of requirements and activities that, that you’re going to be doing in this job. And, and the best, the, the most talented young people out there, they, they want to feel more, more inspired and, and, and understand like okay, how are they going to grow? What is the value beyond just hey, I have a paycheck and I have a 9 to 5, you know, stable job, like what am I going to get out of this? And, and companies want to be attracting that more ambitious type. So I think there’s a gap there.
Matt Alder [00:07:15]:
Absolutely. And I mean I’ve seen this from some employers, but do you think there’s still this sense when employers are writing, writing job ads and scoping out jobs that the get those jobs are lucky to work here? They’re almost doing them a favor so they don’t have to sell beat to them on a personal level or sell, sell those career benefits. Is, is that still, is that still a thing?
Cameron Sorsby [00:07:39]:
Yeah, I think, I think that’s probably how, how most companies approach it. I don’t think they do it intentionally. Even if there’s a lot of demand for, to fill those positions and it’s not necessarily like you’re able to fill that headcount. It’s not like it’s a huge pain point. I still think companies are missing out on a big opportunity to maximize the talent that they can have at that entry level. And it may not be necessarily a short term issue, but when you’re thinking about how do you want to grow your company over time and talent development, I think the best companies, they have true kind of talent pipelines that start in those entry level positions and can get really talented young professionals to start with their company and to continue to grow with their company over three to five years and they’re becoming more valuable over time. And so I think it’s vital for, for the best companies to be kind of having a long term approach to recruiting. Even if you’re able to fill those sales development rep positions, those customer success rep positions relatively easily, you’re probably leaving a lot of opportunity on the table with the type of talent you’re able to attract.
Matt Alder [00:09:07]:
Absolutely. I mean that makes perfect sense. I mean, I suppose digging into the other challenge that you raised, the issue of assessment and selection and this sense of hiring in the dark because people don’t have a long track record that can be looked at. How are the best companies getting round that? What are they doing to really assess the future potential of the people joining their organization?
Cameron Sorsby [00:09:35]:
Yeah, I think what I’ve seen is a much more project based approach to the hiring process Instead of relying on, you know, the traditional process of, you know, all right, resume review, then, you know, any number, series of, of interviews with various team members. I think the best companies that, that we work with do kind of, they start the hiring process. Their first communication with, with their candidates is very much a sales process. The, the number one goal is to get people excited and bought in so that, you know, the best people are going to be attracted to that and then trying to, you know, find ways to replicate, okay, what, what are the specific skills needed to do this job well and how can we kind of create projects and assignments for candidates to do in the meantime? One of the companies we work with, they have their kind of entry level sales and their customer advocate position. They have them present, they have them, the candidate teach the interviewer how to learn. They pick their favorite app on their phone and they put together a slide deck to teach them. As if you were teaching a 5 year old how do you use this and that type of assessment? It gets them because essentially the role is teaching and helping customers troubleshoot and solve their problems and stuff. So they’re actually doing something where you can take something and we want you to teach us how to use this thing. That’s a better way to kind of get at like, okay, is someone going to be successful in this job? Like, how are they communicating this, how are they, you know, putting the guide together, et cetera, rather than, hey, let’s talk for 30, 45 minutes about your previous experience. And it’s it, I think that allows hiring teams to take a less gut based approach. It’s like, well, you’re, you’re really going off of like, do you like this person or not? Rather than can they do the job? And I think that makes it much easier to prevent people that are strong interviewers but not necessarily going to be great fits for specific roles.
Matt Alder [00:12:13]:
A question on quality of candidate experience. Lots of technology is being utilized when dealing with this kind of hiring. So everything from recruiting automation to video interviewing to chatbots, all of those kind of things, particularly if that company’s hiring at scale. What kind of attitude are you seeing from candidates and, and the people that you work with towards this technology, Is it something that, that they’re embracing or is it kind of making the recruitment process more, more unpleasant for them?
Cameron Sorsby [00:12:48]:
I mean, for us specifically, our whole, like the, essentially the second half of our bootcamp is focused on guiding our participants through the job hunting process. So we get into the nitty gritty of what is the best way to initially reach out to companies for specific opportunities, interview performance, all, all the stuff that goes into the hiring process. And our approach is not how can you not how can you optimize yourself as a candidate to go through a company’s set process, but how, what can you do to bypass that initial gatekeeping that you know, tech that companies are using technology more and more to kind of handle and how can you, what can you do to kind of get to a real live human at the company as soon as possible, whether that’s the hiring manager or somebody that works on, on the team that you’re trying to join and could serve as an ally or you know, also reaching out to, you know, the recruiting team as well. And so I think it makes relying on technology for recruiting, I think, I think there’s certainly some value there if you can, can make kind of, you know, initial, you know, the top of the hiring process, the top of that funnel more efficient for your team and you don’t have to rely on as as much manual work. But I think it’s very easily to, to kind of neglect the human side of hiring. I think it’s, I think companies get in trouble when they rely, when they’re too dependent on a list of criteria and not a, and not enough on like how can we, how can we form relationships with potentially strong candidates? And I definitely, I think there’s an onus on candidates to make that effort to stand out. Because if, if you’re somebody that you know, this is an example that our participants do regularly. Instead of submitting their resume through the online application, they will, they will do a two minute video pitch with, with slides that they put together explaining why one, they’re excited about the company, two why they’re excited about the specific role and then three, why they’re a great fit for that. And then they go and do the sales work to find, hey, who would be the best person to reach out to at this company. And I’m going to find their email, I’m going to send them a personalized email. 9 times out of 10 if you’re going to receive an email like that that’s going to grab your attention. And even if that person doesn’t end up being the best fit for the job you’re at, like the fact that someone is taking the time to put in extra effort to apply to your company, you’re, you’re, you’re much more likely to give that person your time as well. And, and I honestly, I think that’s for companies and for candidates, that’s also a way that’s just a more fun experience than going to. Indeed, I’m going, you know, and submitting a hundred, one hundred applications on the candidate side and then on the company side you have, you know, a few hundred resumes to sift through and, and see, you know, who’s worth interviewing. So I think the more personal you can make the job hunting process on both sides, the better off both parties will be.
Matt Alder [00:16:28]:
Tell us a little bit more about, about boot camps. How, what’s the difference between going to a boot camp or going to college and what’s kind of driving the, driving the growth in this sector?
Cameron Sorsby [00:16:42]:
Yeah, I, I think you know, boot camps and colleges are fundamentally two different products. But I think, you know, we, we kind of view college as both supposed to be this enriching life experience as well as like this is the best way to actually start your professional life. And, and I think, you know, the growth of boot camps over the past decade, it’s their college hasn’t necessarily been living up to the promise of starting, you know, the best way to start your professional life. When you just think about it, it’s a very expensive both financially and in, and I think even more importantly in terms of time as a way to actually get your career started. So I think boot camps have just been kind of filling that gap on the market that college I think has been not necessarily fulfilling, especially in the last 10, 20 years or so. What. And so with praxis, you know, the way, the way we think about our program is really praxis is two things. It’s first, you know, our core product is the boot camp itself and the focus of that boot camp is to take somebody who clearly has all of the raw talent that you would like to see from a strong young professional. They have, you know, the work ethic, the grit, the intellectual curiosity, you know, strong communication skills. Like these are the types of things that I think are, you know, that you see in more like entrepreneurial young people and that tend to be really good fits to fill kind of those non technical roles on growing tech companies. You don’t, you don’t need a lot of hard skills going into those roles. What’s more important is the soft skills and tangibles. And so with the core program like our number one goal is to help you successfully transition into your career, into your professional life without feeling the feeling dependent on your degree status. You don’t need to rely on degree status to get these kind of, these types of early career opportunities. And then Once you’re able to kind of get to that level now, you have a lot of options and I think there’s more career mobility. And the really cool thing is if you are doing a boot camp like, like ours as a replacement for college now, you’re, you’re not limited by, you know, especially here in the United States, the student debt that, that you take on. And that just gives you more freedom and flexibility to have a, I think a, a, a better, more like a, a better discovery process in the first, you know, five to 10 years of your career. If you can start with, with as little debt and, you know, less of a burden and as much experience as possible. If you can get, the more experience you can get earlier on, the, the more informed you’re going to be about what you do, like what you don’t like, the other, you know, areas you want to explore. And you’re going to find out things about the types of work that you’re interested in that you would never have known before. So our goal is really just to get you to that point as quick as possible. And then beyond that, the really cool thing is Praxis is also this professional development community for our alumni. We want to keep working with our participants beyond the program itself. And, you know, what are those, whether, what are those things that we can offer people as they expand into their career, you know, the two to five years after the program?
Matt Alder [00:20:52]:
Final question, what does the future look like for your sector and indeed the sort of the future of entry level hiring? What are your kind of predictions for the next couple of years?
Cameron Sorsby [00:21:04]:
So with the kind of the boot camp and higher education landscape, I, I feel pretty confident that we’re going to see more and more competition open up and more options for people. You know, I think education overall, and this applies to university as well, it’s kind of treated as a one, one size fits everyone process, and that’s just not the case. I think, you know, we, this is what we tell participants all the time. Like, you’re able to do the things that you do through Praxis on your own, but I think we provide a space where you can do them quicker and with maybe better guidance and stuff. And I think you’re going to see a diversification of boot camps and just various offerings at that stage to help people that have different interests and different skill sets kind of get their career started. And you know, I think the more variety you see, the better that consumers will be. And then at the, at the recruiting, I really do think that there are pretty strong trends that are going away from relying on standard credentials to make hiring decisions, especially at the entry level, but really across the board. And I think that’s a bit in conflict with kind of the rise of technology in recruiting. And again, like I was saying earlier, I think the companies that our candidates most respond to that, they’re most excited to apply and, and try to get jobs at, they make that hiring process feel very personal. From job postings to initial interviews to, you know, the various activities that they’re doing, they make it, they’re, they, they do the best job of actually selling talent on why they would want to come here. And, and I think, you know, that’s, that’s not going away anytime soon. And, and I think we should be asking, like, how can technology supplement the core objective of recruiting, which is making it more personal and attracting and identifying the best talent we can.
Matt Alder [00:23:41]:
Cameron, thank you very much for talking to me.
Cameron Sorsby [00:23:42]:
You bet, Matt. Enjoyed it.
Matt Alder [00:23:44]:
My thanks to Cameron Sorsby. You can subscribe to this podcast in Apple Podcasts or via your podcasting app of choice. Please also follow us on Instagram. You can find the show by searching for recruiting future. If you’re a Spotify or Pandora user, you can also listen to the show there. You can find all the past episodes@www.rfpodcast.com. on that site, you can subscribe to the mailing list and find out more about working with me. Thanks very much for listening. I’ll be back next time and I hope you’ll join.
