A couple of weeks back, I had the great pleasure of attending the TA Tech North America event in Austin, Texas. There were some great content and discussions which explored the current and future state of talent acquisition technology.
In this week’s show, I have four interviews to give you a flavour of the key topics at the event.
Firstly I interview:
- Terry Baker from Pandologic about the TA Tech Stack research and the disconnect between employers and vendors.
- George LaRocque from HRWins about the amount of investment in talent acquisition technology in 2019
- Jessica Miller-Merrell from Workology about recruitment marketing and the user implications of job boards buying and selling traffic.
I then got the opportunity to get on the main stage and host a fireside chat with Shannon Offord, VP Strategic Partnerships and Alliance at DirectEmployers Association.
In our interview, we discuss:
- The aims and objectives of DirectEmployers Association
- The biggest challenges employers are currently facing.
- Flexible working and Diversity
- Accessibility in recruitment technology
- The future of the industry
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Transcript:
Matt Alder [00:00:00]:
Support for this podcast comes from jobico. Jobico provides the next generation job board software and AI enabled matching technology combining both the benefits of a scalable SaaS platform and the flexibility of a custom solution. With Jobico, businesses can reach a new level of quality and professionalism in online recruiting and can take advantage of the rapidly changing market. Jobico helps leading brands in 12 markets globally to engage talent and grow revenues with job boards. To find out more, go to www.jobico.com. that’s www.jobico.com and Jobico is spelt J O B I Q O.
Matt Alder [00:01:06]:
Hi everyone, this is Matt Alder. Welcome to episode 215 of the recruiting Future podcast. A couple of weeks ago I had the great pleasure of attending the TA Tech North America event in Austin, Texas. There was some great content and some great discussions exploring the current and future state of talent acquisition technology. In this week’s show I have four interviews to give you a flavor of the topics we discussed. First up is Terry Baker, CEO of Pando Logic. Terry presented the findings of the annual talent Acquisition Technology Stack survey and I caught up with him just after he’d come off stage.
Terry Baker [00:01:48]:
To find out more, I’m Terry Baker, I’m the CEO of Pandologic and we had the opportunity to present here at TA Tech research findings on the way employers and solution providers view the tech stack for talent acquisition.
Matt Alder [00:02:04]:
So fantastic. I think it’s a really interesting piece of research. Could you just sort of give us the top line highlights, some of the things that you were talking about in your presentation?
Terry Baker [00:02:13]:
Sure.
Terry Baker [00:02:14]:
So there were three key takeaways and all deal with the fact that there’s a big disconnect between the way employers view the tech stack and the way vendors view the tech stack. The first of which is the value proposition vendors bring to the table. You know what at the end of the day employers are looking for is quality of hire and time to hire. And the key tech stack value prop employers rather suppliers are pushing is all about cost to hire, which makes no sense. Right. In today’s economy with low unemployment. Right. It’s not about cost, it’s about filling a seat. So that was one key takeaway. Another one was whether or not employers should continue to seek kind of best of breed products that tend to lack a little bit in the tech stack integration because they’re newer to market. Right. They’re leading edge, but they haven’t matured enough to actually go through the whole integration process. And when you’re not integrated that means pain for employers in the adoption cycle. So you’ve got to do both. If you’re going to be a good solution provider, you’ve got to be best of breed. But you also have to make the product investment on the integration front and it’s a continued investment, it continues to change year over year. And the other is the education efforts. We didn’t seek to really learn this in terms of the tech stack, but adoption for employers is really based upon how well recruiters have an efficiency or understanding how the product works and how it should be used best. And vendors frankly aren’t doing a good enough job yet on educating their clients about presale and post sale to maximize the use out of those products. So there’s work to be done there on the vendor part.
Matt Alder [00:03:53]:
So you do this research every year.
Matt Alder [00:03:56]:
Sort of Based on what you’re hearing at the moment, how much do you think things are going to change in the next year? If we’re having this conversation this time in 2020, what would we be talking about? The same things or are there some trends and some things that we should look out for?
Terry Baker [00:04:10]:
Yeah. So as it relates to the tech stack there’s going to be continuous change and we’ve seen major entrants into the marketplace and I think there is the hope by employers that big platform providers, the Oracles, right, the Googles, the Facebooks, the Microsoft linkedins are going to be this end to end talent solution provider and they’ll only have to deal with one vendor. That’s not going to happen. What you’re going to see is such continuous evolution and advancement of technology that integration is going to have to be something that employers resource for. They either got to get it from their vendor or they’ve got to commit the resources internally to ensure that when they adopt a best of breed product which is going to have fundamental benefits for them. Game changer kind of benefits like AI. Vendors talk in the context of AI that gets translated into real benefits in terms of time to fill, quality, quality of hire, etc. So when you want to adopt that, take advantage of it, you can’t just do it on a point product, you got to make a much bigger investment and be prepared on on the HR side to accommodate that kind of integration.
Matt Alder [00:05:19]:
Next up is George LaRocque from HRWinds. George is a very close observer of investment in the HR tech space and I was keen to find out how 2019 was shaping up in terms of investment in talent acquisition technology.
George LaRocque [00:05:34]:
I am George LaRocque. I’m founder and principal analyst at HR Wins.
Matt Alder [00:05:39]:
Fantastic.
Matt Alder [00:05:39]:
Now you’ve just come off the stage and you were presenting the data that you have about mergers, acquisitions and investment in the TA Tech space. Tell us about what you’re sort of seeing so far in 2019.
George LaRocque [00:05:54]:
Well, we’re about to close Q3 calendar Q3 in 2019. So today for the TA Tech audience, it was an update, a bit of an annual update, bit of a quarterly update. So so far this year, so we’ll, we’ll call it the end of Q3, even though we have a few days, we’ve seen about $4.2 billion of investment come into HR tech across 170 deals. And this quarter we’ve seen about 964 million and 58 of those 170 deals. So this quarter, you know, a billion dollars, you know, in investment in a significant, it’s a slight dip from where we’ve been, although annually we’ve already matched what we did in 2018. So, you know, all systems are go for investment. Things are still chugging along. You know, we still have Q4 left, which historically is a pretty big quarter for, you know, closing deals out. So I would expect us to exceed 5 billion, maybe even reach 6 billion this year, which would, I think that would be a new record.
Matt Alder [00:07:07]:
And what is the key market segments that are getting the most investment?
George LaRocque [00:07:12]:
So the, the, the categories that get the most investment are hcm. So all your Core HR and Talent Acquisition. I track against three categories. Hcm, Talent Acquisition and Talent Management. So all of your performance management, learning, employee engagement fits there. It’s generally 50, 50 between HCM and Talent Acquisition, HCM gets bigger deals. You’ve got a lot of payroll, benefits, technology, core HR systems where every company of every size needs something in that, in that category. Whereas in Talent Acquisition, we see a lot of smaller deals, we see big deals, but we see a lot of point solutions, a lot of anything from sourcing candidates to, to assessments to any little component that you might use through the whole process.
Matt Alder [00:08:03]:
Jessica Miller-Merrill is a longtime practitioner and observer of the talent acquisition market. It was great to get her views on the topics being discussed.
Jessica Miller-Merrill [00:08:15]:
My name’s Jessica Miller-Merrill. I’m the founder and CEO of Workology. Workology is an online destination for HR and recruiting leaders.
Matt Alder [00:08:23]:
Fantastic.
Matt Alder [00:08:24]:
Now you’ve been at the event for a couple of days and you’re someone who’s very much on the pulse of Talent Acquisition and technology and everything that’s going on. What have your sort of main takeaways been from the event so far?
Jessica Miller-Merrill [00:08:37]:
I think there’s a long way to go in recruitment. Marketing people are in a lot of different places as far as practitioner wise and they have different learning curves and different stages and of course they’re supporting businesses that are incredibly unique and you have to find the right vendor or solution or technology to be able to help solve those challenges that are uniquely yours.
Matt Alder [00:09:00]:
Absolutely.
Matt Alder [00:09:00]:
And what’s been the most sort of interesting thing you’ve seen at this conference.
Jessica Miller-Merrill [00:09:06]:
So far for practitioners? This conference is interesting because you are likely unaware of the buying and selling of candidate information and traffic that’s being redirected to different places. So if you advertise on one job board, doesn’t mean that your posting is going to end up on that job board only. That was something that I didn’t realize until I started being involved with TA tech and going to these conferences.
Matt Alder [00:09:31]:
And do you think, I mean, because there’s a, you, you kind of see these platforms sort of passing traffic around and I completely get it from finding the critical massive audience perspective. But for me there’s still a lot of work to do on the candidate experience side of that because I think people can sometimes get very confused about where they’re applying and what’s, what’s going on. I mean, what’s your, what’s your take on that?
Jessica Miller-Merrill [00:09:52]:
I think there’s a lot of, of that happening where you maybe visit Glassdoor, you click on a job posting and then you go to a completely other site. Candidates don’t know that this is happening. A lot of them are more security aware and I’ve seen a number of job seekers on social media say I’m trying to get, somebody’s trying to hack me, this is happening. So I do think that job boards and these aggregators need to be maybe a little bit more transparent and let candidates know what is happening. It might be a little box that they check just like we do when we agree to the new software upgrade on our iPhone. But at least we’re making them aware of, you know, the information that’s being shared.
Matt Alder [00:10:31]:
Absolutely.
Matt Alder [00:10:32]:
And what’s your prediction for the next 12 to 18 months in talent acquisition? Obviously impossible to make predictions, but you know, what you think is going to happen? If we were talking in, at this time in 2020, what would we be talking about?
Jessica Miller-Merrill [00:10:46]:
Probably nothing because it’s stayed the same since you and I have known each other. Really. There’s been some Small changes, but I would really like to see some more customized experiences. I’d like to see recruiters being more marketers and thinking about the journey or spending more time qualifying candidates and building those funnels and being more proactive. I don’t know if we’re going to be there by 2020, maybe 2022, if the economy holds.
Matt Alder [00:11:14]:
Jessica, thank you very much for talking to me.
Jessica Miller-Merrill [00:11:15]:
Thank you.
Matt Alder [00:11:17]:
Finally, it was my turn to take the stage and host a Fireside Chat with Shannon Offord, VP, Strategic Partnerships and Alliances at Direct Employers Association. In the interview, we talk about the relationship between employers and vendors, flexible working accessibility, diversity, and the future of talent acquisition technology.
Matt Alder [00:11:42]:
Hello. Oh, oh, it’s on straight away. There we are.
Matt Alder [00:11:43]:
That threw me.
Matt Alder [00:11:44]:
I was expecting to say testing, testing or something. I get to have a really comfy chair. This is great. So I’m the producer and host of the Recruiting Future podcast, which is one of the world’s most popular podcasts on recruiting technology and recruiting innovation. But enough about me and onto my guest for this Fireside Chat. We’ve got the comfy chairs. We don’t have a fire, but we can kind of imagine. We can imagine that’s the case. So, Shannon, first of all, could you just start by introducing yourself, telling us a bit about your background and what you do?
Shannon Offord [00:12:20]:
Yeah. So thanks for having me and thank you for allowing me to come to Austin. Actually, the first thing I did when I got here was buy a new pair of cowboy boots, so pretty happy about that. But I know probably a lot of you out there already. I’ve actually been in the industry, gosh, 20 years now. So I spent five and a half years at Monster, left there in 2006, came to direct Employers. It was kind of an odd situation. I’d cashed all my stock options in at Monster and planned on hanging out and being a bum for a year. And Chad Sawash, I don’t know if he’s there somewhere, found out I was gonna leave Monster and called me and asked me to come over and talk to direct employers. And 14 years later, I’m still there. So I know that 14 years at one company is kind of an odd situation, but it’s been a fun ride. We’ve been able to do some really cool things. You know, my role is to manage all of our external partnerships. So my team manages all of our state relationships that we have, all of our federal relationships. We work with a lot of nonprofits across the country, work with a lot of agencies, a lot of HR technology vendors. Soon to be doing some global expansion, and my team will handle that as well.
Matt Alder [00:13:42]:
So obviously we’ve got quite an international.
Matt Alder [00:13:44]:
Audience in the room.
Matt Alder [00:13:46]:
So could you sort of very quickly just give people a quick overview of the Direct Employers association, if they’ve not come across it before, and talk a bit about the aims and objectives?
Shannon Offord [00:13:55]:
Yeah, so we are a nonprofit. We started in 2001. Bill Warren, who recently passed away, who some people consider the founder of online recruitment, started the association with 14 employers. The initial goal was to really bring employers together to help them really figure out some of the recruitment technology and build some tools and technologies that they could share that would make recruiting more cost effective. That’s still something that we’re doing today. But one thing I think that most people know about us right now is that we’re really the driver of jobs into state workforce agencies, into federal portals. We do a lot of work around diversity and veterans, but really we really want to make help our members with recruiting, obviously making that cost effective, helping with veterans, individual disabilities, diversity, and making sure they’re meeting their OFCCP obligations.
Matt Alder [00:15:01]:
Kind of.
Matt Alder [00:15:01]:
Moving on to some insights.
Matt Alder [00:15:04]:
What do you feel are the three biggest challenges for employers at the moment in the current market?
Shannon Offord [00:15:10]:
I mean, obviously, everyone’s trying to find the right talent. That’s really big. A lot of our members consistently ask us where to start looking for talent. You know, one thing that we’ve been talking to them about, I mean, a lot of times they put these requirements in, like, degrees and those types of things, and really try to recruit for experience. Like, have they done this job before? You know, one thing that we’re talking about is aptitude. Right? So if someone has the aptitude to do the job, you can teach them the skills that they need once they’re there. So that’s one thing that we’re talking about to try to help them with trying to find the right talent. So that’s really big. A lot of them are still trying to figure out the recruitment technologies. They’re struggling with that. And there’s a lot of buzzwords out there that they keep. Keep hearing. AI Big data. They keep hearing all these things. They have no idea what it means. So they’ve been asking us, can you help us with this? Can we understand? Which is one of the biggest reasons we wanted to partner with TA Tech. I think the third thing for us, and this is kind of unique just to us, I think, is because we are so entrenched in compliance, that’s an issue for them. They want to make sure that whatever they’re using is going to make sure keep them in compliance with the regulations that most of our members have to follow since they’re federal contractors for the most part. I think 97% of our members are federal contractors.
Matt Alder [00:16:36]:
Absolutely. We’ll kind of come back to compliance again a little bit, a little bit later. I think it’s really interesting what you were saying about the buzzwords and understanding the market and all that kind of stuff. And you know, I do some consulting work and I’ve had two very big employers phone me up this year and.
Matt Alder [00:16:52]:
Say, we need some AI, where do.
Matt Alder [00:16:53]:
We buy some AI? And it’s kind of crazy in terms of what do you need it to do and what is it?
Shannon Offord [00:16:59]:
You know, the funny thing is that we just a quick story. So we had a couple of our members that were, you know, they approached us about AI and they’re like, you know, all these companies are talking about AI and you know, they all can’t really do AI. And I’m like, just to give an example, like a chatbot, right? A lot of that is just a table, but people are marketing it as AI. So I think trying to help employers understand truly what AI is is important. Right? So people say, oh, it’s AI infused or this or that, but no, it’s just really a table.
Matt Alder [00:17:33]:
No. And I think we’re on a topic now where we could talk for hours and hours and hours, but just sort of moving on to sort of the shape of the workforce. So as, and a couple of people have mentioned this on stage already today, as, as we’re kind of moving towards a sort of a more gig based economy and more flexible working patterns. How do you think that’s impacting the way employers are looking to attract and retain talent?
Shannon Offord [00:17:57]:
You know, I go back and this is a unique position to us. You know, people are worried about how this gig economy is going to affect compliance for them. I mean, that’s, you know, what we continue to hear. You know, a lot of them are, you know, they understand that that’s the way or the future of work. You know, I will give you one interesting stat just real quick. And I just got this recently, but in 2015, a lot of people were talking about, you know, this whole flexible working environment and this whole gig economy. And if you look at some of the numbers we received from the Bureau of Labor Statistics, there’s actually been a decline and the amount of flexibility that employers are giving right now, which I find pretty interesting. I mean, if you even think about IBM, I Mean, they pulled a lot of their work from home people and made them come back in the office recently. And we’re seeing a lot more of that in some of the bigger, older types of companies. You know, some of the younger cool companies are still doing the whole flexible thing, which I’m totally good with, but I think it’s really, it’s kind of a mixed situation right now. But I think the companies who are doing it and have done it successfully are probably getting more productivity out of their workers. But I think, like I said, our companies are kind of all over the board on that. You know, some are pulling back, some are adding, you know, to it.
Matt Alder [00:19:17]:
Yeah, absolutely. I think that there is a perception that everyone’s embracing flexible working and it’s kind of the way forward. But as you say, the data doesn’t back that up. And what you’re saying about the increasing productivity and the advantage for an employer of doing it. I had a guest on a podcast a couple of weeks ago called Anna Whitehouse, who’s running a national campaign in the UK for more flexible working and is trying to put laws through Parliament to kind of improve the situation. And the amount of data that she had from companies who were more productive, making more money, adding more shareholder value from flexible working was amazing. So I think it’s going to be an issue that we talk about a lot moving forward. Moving on to recruiting technology and how employers are buying recruiting technology. What’s the sort of the buying process for them? What are the key issues? What kind of decision making processes are going on when it comes to purchasing recruiting technology?
Shannon Offord [00:20:16]:
Yeah, so, and I know that this has been talked about before, but, you know, companies want to know, you know, about integrations, you know, who integrates with what, who does this, who does that? I mean, obviously that’s really important. I think another thing that we’re seeing is that people or employers want to go where they can get multiple services from the same vendor. It looks like they want to reduce the number of vendors they have, whether it be just for sheer accounting reasons or whether it be from. They know if they’re getting multiple products from the same vendor, they know that those products will talk to each other. One other thing that we’ve been seeing a lot lately, and this may be because of the majority of our members being federal contractors with the whole 503 Focus review, and those are reviews that the OFCCP is going to do strictly on disability types of issues. So what we’ve been hearing employers are really worried about are the tools they are using, are they accessible? So their recruitment marketing platform may be accessible, but how someone got to that recruitment marketing platform may not be accessible. And when they leave that recruitment marketing platform and go into the ats, is that ATS going to be accessible? Because if it’s not, then their complete process obviously is not accessible. And they’re worried about that because the ofccp, like I mentioned, is doing focused reviews just on that particular piece right now, and they’re actually going to move that towards veterans here in November. So then employers will have an additional focus around vets as well.
Matt Alder [00:22:07]:
So sticking with the buying process, what’s the sort of the best and worst things you’re seeing vendors doing during the sort of consideration and buying process? And have you got any advice on how they could improve?
Shannon Offord [00:22:22]:
Well, a lot of them are using these buzzwords that people don’t understand. Understand. So, you know, when they talk about these things, people are like, huh, what? And then when they’re asked to kind of back it up, then they really can’t tell the real story of what’s going on. You know, so that’s something that we’ve seen over and over and over again. You know, another thing we’ve, you know, we’ve seen when people talk about, you know, we’ve done, especially because, you know, a lot of companies know that our members are federal contractors. They’ll start talking about, you know, some of the testing that they’ve done and just kind of, you know, they’ll say, oh, we’ve did this, we’ve done this and this and whatever. But then they never actually explain what they’ve really done. So that leaves people somewhat confused. So I think a lot of us just really confusion, right? I mean, they’re using terms and technology, I mean, in terms that people don’t understand, but they keep hearing it, right? So they’re like, okay, we’ve got to do some investigation. Which again is why one of the reasons we wanted to partner with tatac and get some of that information out and help people understand what’s going on?
Matt Alder [00:23:24]:
Absolutely. We need to buy some AI and we need it now. I think that’s interesting. And I kind of see that there’s a mismatch in language and sometimes a mismatch in objectives. And I think sometimes what vendors think is important to employers isn’t at all or is number 10 on their list of priorities. And actually, if you spoke in language that address number one or two, that might make it an easier process.
Shannon Offord [00:23:48]:
One thing I will add, I think as more and More. And I don’t want to keep talking about compliance, but obviously that’s a space that we are in very intimately. I think when you start to look at is compliance or a system being compliant, is that one of the reasons why someone would buy it? And I think as you see more and more companies allowing or having their complex appliance people at the table, that will be more of a consideration on who they decide to use. It may not be so much right at this particular moment, but we do know that there have been companies that we’ve worked with that have said that they will not purchase a particular vendor’s product because they know that that system’s not compliant and they don’t want to get in trouble later down the road. So, you know, I obviously come from a for profit company. It was a long time ago and I do know kind of how companies look at if they’re going to make a product accessible or not. Right. So they want to know what the costs are going to be to that and they want to know what that the benefit once they do it, what the benefit’s going to be down the road. Right. Is it actually going to bring in more business or not? And if they don’t feel it is, then they kind of push that to the side. And I think eventually, which I think that eventually will be soon, that will start to hurt some of the vendors who actually take that approach.
Matt Alder [00:25:07]:
Final question from me and then maybe we can see if there were some questions around the room. What can recruitment technology vendors be doing to help promote and achieve more workforce diversity?
Shannon Offord [00:25:21]:
Well, I mean, one thing I never like I go to a lot of diversity conferences, right. And the only vendors I see there are vendors who are particularly or actually focus on that space. Right. So I don’t see other vendors who it would affect, but that’s not their main business at those conferences. So they can learn about really what’s going on. You know, I’m actually, when I head from here, I’m going to a pretty large disability event and I guarantee there are probably be maybe two companies from this space that’ll be there. But I think it’s important to understand kind of what’s going on out there so you can actually make your product more effective in those areas.
Matt Alder [00:26:07]:
Fantastic. And I suppose to just get you to do a summary question out of sort of all the things that we’ve talked about, if you’re going to give people sort of, you know, one takeaway to go and think about in terms of how they build market and sell their products. What would that take away be?
Shannon Offord [00:26:24]:
Well, I mean, I think accessibility is something that’s very important and it’s just going to get bigger and bigger. If you look at our, I mean, people are getting older and they’re working longer, and there are going to be more and more people who have a disability, right? Whether it be that they can’t see far or close up or whatever it be. It’s funny. So I’m colorblind and nobody ever focuses on that. And, you know, there’s a lot of times I go up to a website and I can’t even see it. I mean, it’s like, just ridiculous. I’m like, oh, this all looks the same to me, whatever. So, you know, I think that, you know, focusing on that or at least taking that into consideration is something that’s really important because I think if you do, especially as people get older and work, you know, later in life and, you know, become, you know, we’re going to see more and more people become or have disabilities as we go on. If they can actually talk to that and talk about what they’ve done, I think that will show a lot to some of these employers who are looking for those types of products with that type of capability at this point. I mean, everything that we’re doing right now really is going to have is going to be accessible. All the products, services that we provide, it’s something that our members expect from us. It’s something they’re asking about in the marketplace. And we think that, you know, we have to do that and we’re encouraging people to do that as well.
Matt Alder [00:27:51]:
I have one more quick question. It’s a question that I asked everyone who comes on my podcast. So I’ll ask it in this, in this live version.
Shannon Offord [00:27:59]:
Can you buy me dinner? Yes.
Matt Alder [00:28:03]:
So where do you think we’re going next? What’s the future look like? What do you think we’ll be sort of focusing on in a couple of years time when it comes to talent acquisition and technology?
Shannon Offord [00:28:18]:
It’s funny, actually, one of my friends asked me that exact same question. Who’s a rep for one of the vendors that we work with? I think a couple things. So one, I think the way we sell to employers today, and not just us, but everyone will change, especially if you’re in the advertising piece of it. I think eventually the majority of companies, employers will use programmatic. I know Cindy was at our. I don’t know if she’s here. She was at our conference this past year and ask a question about how many people are using programmatic. And very few people raised their hand, but I think it was like 10 people raised their hand or something like that in a room of maybe 50, 60 people. That will change, right? I mean, you will see more and more people starting to raise their hand and there probably will be less or fewer and fewer direct reps because programmatic will be the way that employers actually will start building, buying their advertising right now. They’re just not educated enough to do it. I mean, their marketing teams are. I mean, they know how to do it because they’ve been doing that for a long time. But people in our space haven’t been doing that. So I think that’s one thing. I also think that AI is going to play a bigger and bigger role and I think there’s some danger in that, but I won’t get into that right now. But I do think long term that will really affect the recruitment industry as a whole. And it is a little bit right now, but not nearly what it’s going to do eventually. And obviously the whole gig economy that will also, I think, play a larger and larger role because employees or potential employees will make it or will force that issue because they won’t be like me at the same employer for 14 years. Not that that’s a bad thing. But yeah, you definitely won’t see that long term.
Matt Alder [00:30:18]:
So, Shannon, thank you very much for talking to me.
Shannon Offord [00:30:20]:
Thanks.
Matt Alder [00:30:20]:
Thank you. My thanks to Terry Baker, George LaRocque, Jessica Miller, Merrill, Shannon Offord, and of course industry legend Peter Weddle for inviting me to the event. You can subscribe to this podcast in Apple Podcasts or via your podcasting app of choice. The show also has its own dedicated app, which you can find by searching for recruiting future in your App Store. If you’re a Spotify or Pandora user, you could also find the show there. You can find all the past episodes@www.rfpodcast.com. on that site you can subscribe to the mailing list and find out more about working with me. Thanks very much for listening. I’ll be back next week and I hope you’ll join me.
