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Ep 619: TA On The Brink Of Revolution

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During May, Recruiting Future combined forces with The Chad and Cheese Podcast to run two face-to-face TA leader meet-ups in Edinburgh and Glasgow.

TA is on the brink of a revolution, and people expect significant changes in the coming months and years. While there was some anxiety about potential future scenarios, there was genuine excitement around the potential of AI, skills-based thinking, and a more integrated approach to talent, making recruiting better for everyone.

This episode features eight industry leaders talking about the practicalities of the revolution ahead:

Danny Caines – HR Project Manager International Talent Acquisition at Babcock

George Dobbin – Global Head of Talent Acquisition and Development at Sabio

Susan McRoberts – Independent HR Consultant

Nicki Paterson – Chief Growth Officer at Solutions Driven

Euan Cameron – CEO at Willo

Nicolle Sinclair – Talent Engagement Leader at Diageo

Euan McNair – Talent Acquisition, Inclusion, and Brand Director at Aegon

Jo Grant – Employer Brand Manager UK and Ireland.

Follow this podcast on Apple Podcasts.

Matt: Support for this special episode of Recruiting Future comes from Daxtra, Willo Solutions Driven, Ashby, Gigged.AI, Poetry, and TAtech. Thanks to all of them for making our Scottish events possible and helping to facilitate the excellent conversations that created this episode of the podcast. So, the sponsors again, Daxtra, Willo, Solutions Driven, Ashby, Gigged.AI, Poetry, and TAtech.

[Recruiting Future theme]

Matt: Hi there. Welcome to Episode 619 of Recruiting Future with me, Matt Alder. During May, Recruiting Future combined forces with The Chad & Cheese Podcast to run two face-to-face TA leader meetups in Edinburgh and Glasgow. TA is on the brink of a revolution and people expect significant changes in the coming months and years.

While there was some anxiety about potential future scenarios, there was genuine excitement around the potential of AI, skills-based thinking, and a more integrated approach to talent to make recruiting better for everyone. One thing that does concern me is how introspective talent acquisition can sometimes be, focusing more on its shortcomings and perceived helplessness and driving positive change. Fortunately, I was blown away by some forward thinking and proactive TA leaders in Scotland who are genuinely making a difference and innovating for the future.

This episode features eight of those industry leaders talking about the practicalities of the revolution ahead. So, let’s start by kicking off with the Glasgow Conversations, which feature Danny Caines, HR Project Manager International Talent Acquisition at Babcock International, George Dobbin, Global Head of Talent Acquisition and Development at Sabio. Independent HR Consultant Susan McRoberts, and Nicki Paterson, the Chief Growth Officer at Solutions Driven. Between them, they talk about the long-term impact of AI, illustrating the value of TA to the C-suite, breaking down silos in HR and the importance of choosing the right hiring partner.

Please, could you introduce yourself and tell us what you do?

Danny: So, my name is Danny Caines. I head up talent acquisition for Babcock’s, what they call as Type 31 Program. So, they’re building a fairly high-tech Royal Navy frigate. They’re going to build five of them, and that’s the first time they’re going to be building ships from scratch. My job is to help them resource the talent for that.

Matt: Fantastic. That must be an interesting project to be working on massively.

Danny: Yes. It’s definitely interesting, sorry different from what I’ve done before.

Matt: What are the big challenges that you’re seeing in TA at the moment? We’ve kind of spent today talking about technology and skills and everything that’s sort of changing and driving change. What do you think the biggest challenges are?

Danny: I think from my side, there’s two or three things. I’m going to put talent aside, because talent is always hard to find, so that’s maybe one. But the key things are, data and how we use that in a sense of making data-driven decisions, and what do we mean by that? It’s about making recruiters more data driven and how they deal with the business in the sense of rather than just going in with emotion and we can’t do this because it’s also about getting the business to understand the facts behind what’s going on, so they can help the business drive decisions.

The other one is about how do we do more with less. And this is something I talked about earlier on in the meetup today. So, this is the fact that talent acquisition, your landscapes change massively. We went from a massive drop in COVID to a big bounce back after COVID, then the economy had other ideas, and we’ve gone massive drop again. So, it’s understanding how you get the right skills, the right tools, the right technology, and the right approaches to doing more with what you’ve got to add the real value. So, they’re the real key things. And I think the final piece that links into that is showing that you’ve got value to the key player that plays in the business. So right now, that could be the board, it could be middle management whatever, they’re the key things.

Matt: Just to pick up on that last one, because I know that’s something that lots of TA leaders struggle with in their organization. What’s kind of worked for you? What advice would you give to people in terms of getting that buy in? Because we are at a time where TA is going to have to drive a lot of change and take a lot of preexisting ideas and get people to abandon them. How do you do that?

Danny: I think the first thing is blatant honesty. As I’ve walked into the organization I’m in right now, they’ve been used to TA selling them the dream, so we haven’t done this, but we’ve done this great thing. So, there’s almost this emphasis on the great thing. My key view is that you need to be really honest about what’s going right or going wrong so that you can paint a true picture of what’s needed. And with that, you can then start to build the enablers.

So, for example, if I look at right in Babcock, let’s look at that one. They’re looking at welders and fabricators as they build ships, okay. These aren’t broad brush statements. They aren’t people that can be sitting there with laptops and iPads and stuff like that. And I’ve identified, for example, that we’re struggling to onboard them quick enough. And what hit me, ironically, you’re going to laugh at this, at 03:00 AM this morning I woke up, light bulb moment. I’m like, “Hang on, we’re sending them documents, PDFs. It’s not so much what we’re asking them to do, it’s the format that we’re asking them to do it. It’s not going to work on mobile phone, so what do we do about that?” So, I’m being really straight with the board around. Some of the things that they’ve just accepted because it’s been the norm is that actually this isn’t acceptable. So, I’ve had the courage to go in and go, “Sorry. Normally you’ve just said that’s TA’s problem, it’s not. This is a business problem.” So that’s one, it’s about being really straight with the board, because actually I think that’s well received, that’s well respected.

I think the other thing is about going into them and looking at the– I use the term the value chain. So, it’s understanding, the sort of soup to nuts from when you attract someone or even before that, how you attract them, traits of attracting them, right the way through to offer stage and onboarding and understand where the bottlenecks are and being really, really clear with those senior leaders what they are. So, I think if you’re clear with them and honest with them, that’s a bit of a breath of fresh air for them. And they understand that, back that with data they’re willing to put their investment in.

Matt: What does the future look like? I mean, again, we’ve talked about it all day. What do you think the TA team of the future is going to look like?

Danny: It is going to be a lot smaller. Adam Gordon mentioned this earlier on about the roles diversifying and I agree with him. I think there will be less recruiters. I think there’s a couple of things. So, one of the things I’ve noticed in last few years is TA teams will become a lot more hybrid. Now, what I mean by that is not about being on site, off site, it’s more about having a dial up, dial down element of the team. So, an embedded talent partner or an RPO and then a core of in house, if they decide they’ve got in house-people, some functions might not want that. So that’s one element. So, it’s about having the scalability, if you like to do that.

The other piece for me is about having skills in the right place. So, my role, if I’m being honest, I sometimes feel like I’m held together by Excel, PowerPoint, and Sellotape[?]. So, I’m becoming more data orientated on a regular basis. So, do we need a data analyst in TA that can help drive some of that stuff and then feed me the information I need that I can then converse with and feed onto other people. And then maybe the other aspect of that is starting to get into the wider outreach attracts from the side of it. So, I’m not talking in recruit marketing, there’s a specialist place for those anyway, I don’t think that’s ever going to go. This is about more how we drive that further. What are the different things we could be doing that from recruitment perspective?

Matt: Thank you very much for talking to me.

Danny: Thank you.

George: My name is George Dobbin and I’m the Global Head of Talent Acquisition and Development at the Sabio Group. So, my remit covers everything, talent acquisition, talent management, organizational design, and improvement.

Matt: What are you seeing as the main challenges in talent acquisition at the moment? What’s driving change? What’s challenging? What’s difficult?

George: I honestly think that we are in the AI revolution and it’s here and it’s now. The talent acquisition space itself, it’s bold to say, but it needs to catch up with the market at the moment and the AI in the market that candidates use and people using their day to day lives, they don’t apply to recruitment at the moment in the best possible way. So, I think there’s a not a steep learning curve, but more of a removing the stigma to AI.

Matt: Yeah, I think it’s an interesting point and a bit early on you were actually talking about candidates using AI. How is that impacting things from your perspective?

George: I think it’s a game changer in terms of the selection process and how talent acquisition professionals actually use technology to enable the process rather than to hinder it. We are seeing a surge in AI-generated CVs, so everything looks the same, it’s very polished, it’s the same content, it’s the same format and same layout. I think as TA professionals what we need to do is to design processes that are task led and much more objective and human led. Everyone is saying that AI is going to replace everyone’s jobs. I don’t think that. I think it’s going to create new jobs where people use AI to augment their role.

Matt: Your kind of overview that this is the end for the traditional recruitment process and we need to move forward, reinvent it, because it’s just not working or relevant with all the AI that’s out there.

George: I wouldn’t say it’s not working. I think it’s on the brink of revolution. I think we’ve hit that kind of point where technology surpasses in our daily lives so much more than it ever has and it’s constantly changing. And I think going forward– We had a discussion at the bar earlier about the change in technology. I think you almost, you plan aspirationally of what you want to do going forward and the technology will catch up. I think we’re in the past at the moment in the TA space in that lens.

Matt: Final question, what advice would you give to TA leaders listening in terms of what they should be doing right now? To plan for the future, to own the future, to move forward in a really proactive way?

George: My advice probably comes in three points. Really easy, simple, do more with less, do more with the same, and do something different. It’s something in our business that we regularly think about. Augmentation of processes in the mundane to add value and improve that customer experience or candidate experience in our view.

Matt: George, thank you very much for talking to me.

George: You’re a legend. Thanks, Matt.

Matt: Could you introduce yourself and tell us what you do?

Susan: My name is Susan McRoberts and I’m an independent HR consultant.

Matt: What are you seeing as the biggest challenges in talent and HR at the moment in the work that you’re doing?

Susan: It’s a tough time. There’s loads of challenges on different fronts. I think attracting talent into organizations, retaining talent, but also being really clear about how you get value from people, what their role in an organization is going to be. And I think sometimes things are moving so fast, obviously with technology and AI and all those sorts of things, customers, political landscape, economic challenges and things, so you can bring someone in to do something and that role can change at such a pace that, what you brought them in to do has changed before they’ve even really onboarded them. So, making sure that people are able to keep that pace and that you can support them in those transitions and that we’re not burning people out, and that we’re not putting people into roles where they’re not going to be successful.

Matt: How do companies do that? Because it’s obviously a really big problem. You add to that it’s not just roles that are changing, skills are changing as well. They’re going out of date and it’s sort of making us rethink the whole way that we think about people. What have you seen working? What are organizations doing to kind of combat that?

Susan: I think what doesn’t work is when we think that the solution is outside of the organization. So, we think that someone externally is the answer rather than looking to find the answers within the organization. So, I think we’ll see it quite often with things like, say, AI again, we’ll recruit AI experts into the organization. There’s not that many AI experts out there anyway, but someone can label themselves as an AI expert and then we’re all like, “Oh, must bring these people in at extortionate salaries,” creates all this sort of salary increases and disproportion within the organization, all those sorts of things. It’s like how do we train? How do we keep pace internally rather than always think that the solution is something that we can buy in and really looking at, when do we really need to buy in skills or talent and when do we really need to look inside and develop and become an agile organization that grows and changes and brings people with us on that journey. Because we can’t keep burning people out. We can’t keep thinking that the perfect candidate exists out there or that we can buy it and we need to develop it.

Matt: And do you think that is going to lead to the traditional silos of HR working much more closely together? Or should it lead to that?

Susan: Yeah. I mean, now I work independently. I work as a people consultant for scaling organizations. And, the joy of that is that I do own that end-to-end employee experience. And it’s vast, it’s so vast. So, it’s challenging in terms of trying to do everything and cover all of the different areas of the people function. But the benefit that it gives me is that I can make it all join up, which is what you don’t get when you are bigger and you’re having to deal with different functions. So that joining up and making sure that there’s that sort of golden thread that runs through things, that we just make everything align and reinforce and that there’s those threads and those values and the purpose and the culture that runs through everything is so so important.

Nicki: My name is Nicki Paterson. I’m the chief growth officer at Solution Driven. We’re an international recruitment company, 60 countries right across STEM.

Matt: Now, you work with lots of clients, lots of different companies in lots of different countries. What are you seeing as some of the common challenges in the talent space at the moment?

Nicki: I think it’s no secret there’s a lot of cautious optimism out there. Over the last few years, you’ve seen a real boom in terms of hiring in particular industries, and then you’ve seen a lot of crash in a lot of the same industries as well. So, there’s a huge reservation right now for companies to grow with people. But at the same time, not every organization wants to be flat every year. There’s an optimum– everybody wants to grow a little bit each year, revenue goals. Everybody wants to take that next step forward, but I think companies have been a lot more deliberate and a lot more patient about how they do things so.

And one side, you’re seeing a lot of super reactive hiring, which isn’t always great and isn’t always the most planned out or methodical. On the flipside, I’m seeing companies when they are a bit more deliberate about where they want to go as a business that may be pivoted or they’re restructured or they make a decision that they would like to confidentially or sensitively replace a particular role. I’m actually seeing a lot of really good moves being made, and that’s based on a lot of collaboration, a lot of discussion, both good communication and alignment, and that’s made for some awesome hires for us.

Matt: It’s interesting because we’ve seen this incredible boom then bust in the size of TA teams and the size of recruiting functions and all of those kind of things. Do you think that employers are going to take a step back from doing that in the future and think much more strategically and long term or outside their organization to try and keep that continuity? How do you think it’s going to develop?

Nicki: I think those demands are going to be put on TA by a lot of leadership teams to say, “Do more with less and be as lean as possible.” I think right now what I’m seeing is really interesting because we’ve– And I say this very humbly, won a lot of new clients in 2024. But I’m also seeing a lot from people that we’re working with, they’re reducing their PSLs. They’re looking for less, more fruitful partnerships, which companies that I’m working with are delivering for us, who do we like, who can help us in multiple countries, who have more consistent processes. So, I think we’re in an era of collaboration and partnership. And I think if you are only offering one core service, you may struggle a little bit. But I definitely see and a few times mentioned through the course of today, there’s going to be a real– For me collaboration between people, tech and process, driven by data that takes people forward.

Matt: I couldn’t agree with that more. And what would your advice be to the TA leaders here out there listening in terms of building those partnerships with the external suppliers that they work with? What makes for a great partnership and a great relationship in the kind of way that you’re describing?

Nicki: Yes, it’s so hard to say this with plugging your own company, but I think our purpose is to be more than a hiring partner. I think anyone that delivers more than they say they’re going to is a good partner. It’s very difficult when you set the bar high in the first place, like our CEO. But I guess for me the advice would be who goes and above and beyond for you, who treats you not like a number. When you work with smaller, more agile firms, they typically tend to treat you better and make you feel special throughout that process. And that’s what all we’re striving for and Solution Driven is how can we work with companies that are on the same page as you. In the first place don’t just bring on any client, so I think this goes both ways.

But I think from a TA leader, you want to work with companies that can offer you just more than there’s a CV, it’s got to be data, it’s got to be process, it’s got to be insights, it’s got to be information, it’s got to be things like this, events and collaboration. I think that’s really what people are looking for.

Matt: So unsurprisingly, one of the biggest themes in the conversations today was AI and technology and how recruiting might change and all of these kind of things. Where do you think technology is taking us? How do you think things are going to change? What’s technology going to drive that’s different?

Nicki: It’s a tough one because I do think there’s a lot of people really scared by it right now. And think again, it goes back to if the teams are going to be more lean, you want to be more productive. If you speak to a lot of recruiters that were super busy during COVID all of a sudden became HR business partners, the part they don’t want to get back to is the sourcing. So, most people in life don’t like admin. Good salespeople don’t like admin. So how can you automate as many of the mundane tasks as possible to have the best experience possible in your own role and portray that onto any candidate or employee in your business? And I think that’s what we’re starting to see. Companies aren’t– It’s not just about hiring anymore. It’s about keeping your own people happy, that the overall brand, the culture, it’s all starting to come together. So, I think for me, the next few years, it’s about companies trying to get all of those things right and aligned. And the companies, the HR team and the leadership team are aligned will get there first.

Matt: Nicki, thank you very much for talking to me.

Nicki: You’re very welcome.

Matt: Hi, it’s Matt and we will be back to the interview very shortly. Is your career future proof? Can anyone’s career be future proof? These are interesting questions in talent acquisition at the moment. In several decades of working in this industry, I’ve never seen a time of greater disruption and change. And we really are still only at the beginning. With technology advancing as quickly as it is now, there’s a tendency to believe that we have no control over the future. This is wrong and I passionately believe that this is the precise time when we should be inventing the future. I want to see talent acquisition thrive and I want recruiting to be transformational in getting everyone into the right job for them with the right skills at the right time. So, I’ve built a course to help and it’s called Trend Spotting.

Trend Spotting is an on demand digital course that examines the forces driving change and assesses the emerging trends in talent acquisition. It also teaches a simple but robust model to help you understand, plan for, influence, and invent the future. Trend Spotting is for everyone in talent acquisition. It will help you future proof your career, create future-focused talent acquisition strategies and build your influence within your business. I’ve split Trend Spotting into nine short lessons to easily fit into the flow of your busy day. The feedback from the TA leaders who’ve taken the course so far has been amazing, and I know you’ll find it will really help you future proof your career. You can find out more by going to mattalder.me/course. That’s mattalder.me/course.

So now onto the Edinburgh conversations. You’re going to hear from Euan Cameron, CEO at Willo. Nicolle Sinclair, Talent Engagement Leader at Diageo. Euan McNair, Talent Acquisition, Inclusion, and Brand Director at Aegon, and Jo Grant, Employer Brand Manager UK and Ireland at EY. Topics include the future of the candidate, experience, skills-based hiring, hiring manager capability, and employer branding.

Matt: So, could you introduce yourself and tell us what you do?

Euan: Thank you, Matt. Nice to be here. So, I’m Euan Cameron, CEO and co-founder of Willo. Willo is a video-interviewing platform launched in 2020 and we’re now operating in all 195 countries.

Matt: Obviously from that experience that you’re having, the clients that you’re working with, and also being at both the events that we’ve done this week, what are you seeing as the biggest challenges in TA at the moment?

Euan: Okay, so this is an interesting question because it’s taken quite a few months of research and a number of talks like this to narrow it down to a few trends because there’s a lot of noise and there’s a lot of challenges. But all the challenges started to sound the same to me, really over the course of this week, over the two sessions. And we released a really good piece of research last week called Hiring Humans, which had this similar trend. And the trends that I’ve been able to boil it down to is–

Well, there’s two trends, I’ll start with the first one. The first one is understanding and educating the business on what the purpose of TA is. And for a lot of organizations, it’s not clear, it was previously quite clear. They just paid a TA department or a TA team to fill roles, and filling roles was the product of their effort and their labor. But then as times evolved, that’s become more and more automated and you can fill roles to a certain extent with tools and automation. And the purpose of the TA team has become less clear and the value of a TA team has become less clear, and that’s trend number one.

Trend number two is the serious amount of change that’s coming to the industry. And this is not just the recruitment industry, this is industries in general, sales, marketing, product. The threat, I suppose, or the change that’s coming, depending how you look at it, is AI, and the impact AI is going to have on all of the functions within a business. But if we focus on TA, the big massive challenge here is the mindset of the TA team or the TA department or the TA function to adapt and change and embrace AI. You can’t stop it happening. And I likened it earlier in the day to what we saw in marketing. Ten, 15 years ago, we had marketing, and it was traditional marketing. People used to write adverts to radio, they used to put adverts in newspapers. And then you counted how many phone calls you got, and that was your ROI, or you counted how many coupons were printed out and handed in, and that was your ROI.

And then digital marketing came along and everyone said, you need a website and you’re going to essentially acquire clicks, and those clicks are then going to buy things. And suddenly you had marketers spending all day in HubSpot or all day in website platforms building web pages. That wasn’t the same job that they had five years ago. They weren’t writing adverts anymore. And that was a successful transition for a lot of people, but it was also a painful time for a lot of people because they didn’t have the mindset that could embrace the change.

So, that’s the two things, I think the first one is TA is struggling to be seen as valuable in a lot of organizations. And then the second one is, how do you ensure that TA teams have the right mindset for what’s coming, because it’s coming.

Matt: And from the clients you work within also, some of the fantastic speakers that we’ve heard over the last week that we’ve been doing this, the people who are kind of getting this right, or the people you think are heading in the right direction, what is it that they’re doing specifically that would make you think that they get this and they’re going to make the changes they need to make?

Euan: Absolutely. I think one of the trends that we’re seeing is that it tends to be, it’s not specific to any type of employer. You couldn’t bucket employers and say, like, it’s companies that are in tech that are doing it well or it’s companies of a certain size that are doing it well. But what I would say is its teams of a certain composition that are doing it well. So, the teams that are diverse, and diverse teams typically are open to change, and they’re very resilient just by their very nature. So diverse teams are really resilient and embracing change. And they’re able to demonstrate quite successfully that, “Hey, this is the thing that we’re doing, and we’re doing it really well and we’re adding value to the organization and you should keep us and you should pay us more and all that kind of stuff.” So, diversity.

And then the other one is just mindset, and a huge amount of that comes from the organization top down. If you are in an organization that is traditional. They have made this widget for hundreds of years and it just happens to sell because it’s the only widget in the market that’s not really a very growth mindset organization. They’re pretty fixed. They’re just going to sell the thing and they’re going to wake up everybody and sell more things. And that filters all the way down, whereas the organizations that have this growth mindset of change and adaptability and growth, it filters down to the TA teams and they are more successful as a result because they see the organization embracing change. It’s not seen as a threat.

Matt: Yeah, I think that’s really interesting, that whole kind of organizational DNA. I mean, I remember you mentioned HubSpot there. I did a really interesting podcast interview with HubSpot a few years ago about how they thought about their funnel for TA and it mirrored how they built their software. There’s a lot about what a company does that makes a difference here. As a final question, I’d be really remiss not to ask you this as a CEO in a tech company, in the recruitment space, lots of talk about the balance between technology and humans and all those kind of things. Now obviously, you’ve got technology, you’re building technology for the future. What’s tech going to be able to do and what is the role that balance between tech and humans in TA and recruiting in a few years’ time?

Euan: Let’s start with the candidate. I’m going to answer the candidate part first because everyone always says, “What does that mean for my job?” And that’s not so interesting because we spoke about the fact that if you have an open mindset and you’re open to change, you can overcome that. So, let’s talk about what it means for the candidate first. For the candidate, AI is a good thing. And it’s a good thing because first and foremost, AI allows you to do things at scale. And for a candidate, it means personalization at scale. It means customization at scale. It means adaptability at scale. So, for example, if a candidate applies and you’re using an AI tool behind the scenes, the AI tool can say, “Hey, Matt, you applied for this sales role, but we actually have this ops role that’s way better for you.” But you can’t do that at scale with humans. But an AI tool can sit there behind the scenes all day long and go, “Hey, all those things that you just said, Matt, all those credentials you just told us about, perfect for this ops role, I’m going to pass you over to the hiring manager for the ops role.” So, AI is an amazing enabler for candidates, because candidates come in to an organization at the moment and if they don’t quite fit the role, they just get rejected. But in the future organization, the candidate applies to the organization and then the organization’s AI tool goes, “Hey, we have all these roles. These roles fit you perfectly. I’m going to put you forward.”

You just literally cannot do that at scale, no matter how many recruiters you have, and you can’t do it effectively at scale, even if you tried. So, this is an amazing enabler for candidates because it allows them to go through a customized route. It personalizes the journey for them. It’s really cool.

There’s also another side to it, which is training and feedback, and we’re building this into the Willo tool, which is quite exciting. Candidates don’t get feedback and we’ve known that for decades. It’s still one of the number one things, which is mind blowing when there’s all this technology out there, candidates just do not get feedback, it’s the number one thing. And you see all day long on Reddit and Twitter and everything else, and it’s tiring to read because it’s the same thing every damn year. But what’s really cool about AI is , is it’s actually going to be able to not only give feedback to candidates, regardless of where they are in the stage, but it will be able to give actual personalized, actionable feedback. And again, this is something that although humans might want to do, they can’t do at scale, no matter how good they are, they just cannot feedback to every candidate and say, “Hey, Matt, if you’ve done X, Y and Z, work on X, Y and Z better, and then you’ll be able to get the role next time whatever.” AI can, it can look at all the notes, it can look at all the interview notes, it can look at the transcripts, and it can give really valuable feedback, so the candidate wins.

Matt: Please introduce yourself and tell us what you do.

Nicolle: So, my name is Nicolle Sinclair. I’m Talent Engagement Lead for global supply for Diageo.

Matt: Fantastic stuff. And what are you seeing as the biggest challenges in talent acquisition at the moment?

Nicolle: One of the biggest challenges is actually looking at kind of skills-based hiring and trying to open people’s mindsets. So, within the drinks industry in particular, there comes with a legacy of perception of what the rules are, job titles and levels of experience. And what we’re really trying to do right now is open up mindset around transferable skills. Not only how do we engage with that talent audience, but how do we actually set them up for success when they join the organization?

Matt: Give us some examples of kind of how you’re doing that or the way that you’re trying to make people think differently about roles and how people can be successful in them.

Nicolle: Yeah. So, phase one, what we’re doing is working with a lot of, [unintelligible 00:32:26] holes and then distilleries looking at specific operator roles, where we potentially historically looked at individuals who have worked in a similar environment within food manufacturing, kind of FMCG-type environments. What we then did was look at actually a really wide range of audiences and different personas of mindset. What kind of skills and leadership qualities actually were we looking for people to be successful within that environment? And actually, from a culture perspective, how does that bring the business on an evolution as well?

So, one of the things that we did was map out where those transferable skills can come from. So we’re actually looking at team leaders within the things in retail, so we found a great opportunity around, how do they engage with teams? They’re obviously very led by data. When you think about stock control, how does that then fit with regards to positive intervention. If positive intervention is on a line and just thinking about that proactive mindset and approach.

But one of the key parts was around that learning agility. So how do you actually map that through your interview process to think about? Does that person have the appetite to also transfer into a different environment and different skill set as well? And would they kind of lean into that training opportunity? So, we’ve definitely done that with our operator population. And right now, we’re doing a lot in that kind of team-lead population as well to think about those transferable skills.

But again, there is a perception that we have to kind of unlock with regards to be a senior, you don’t necessarily need to have come from that specific background with X amount of years’ experience. So, a journey that we’ve been on is trying to remove any of the prerequisites of we need 10 years’ experience. What we’re actually trying to do is look at what are the kind of key attributes, skills and behaviors, and how does that resonate with the talent audience.

Matt: I think that’s really interesting. From a lot of the organizations that I’ve spoken to who are trying to do a similar thing, one of the biggest barriers they have is the kind of hiring manager’s perception of how things have always been done and those kind of things. How have you sort of got hiring managers kind of on that journey with you as you’ve gone through it?

Nicolle: Yeah, definitely. I think it’s about a phase drive [unintelligible 00:34:28] and it’s actually been able to do different proof points. So, what is the key unlocks as part of this? So, one of it is looking at kind of diversity and inclusion in our sites and thinking about what’s the future of our culture? Does it represent our local communities in which we have specific kind of size and visibility? But what we’ve done is worked with specific focus groups and specific managers who actually, when we sat down and worked through job descriptions, where we have had those specific calls to X amount of years’ experience or specific things, even using language.

So, if you think about in a manufacturing environment, using Lean Six Sigma or certain words that necessarily resonate with individuals that are coming from a different background or a different industry, how do we unpack that to actually ask the questions around? Okay, what drives the need for that level of experience that you’ve designated within that job description? When you think about Lean Six Sigma or operational excellence, what are the key bits that you’re actually looking for from a specific mindset and how do we unpack that to use much more inclusive language that will enable people to feel like they can engage with the conversation?

So, it’s very much about, I think pulling something that’s in front of you, unpicking it, and sense of how do we open up that language, how do we translate it to make sure it feels accessible to people and actually does that then widen your talent audience and as part of that bring the hiring managers on the journey to then see the value that those individuals are coming from. Presenting back case studies to show actually where have we seen the value with regards to the quality of candidates through scoring matrix? Have we seen it through that? From a retention perspective, are we seeing more retention driven through some of these experiences of which we’re starting to collect that data now? So, it’s been a really interesting journey.

Matt: That is really interesting because I think one of the things that came back from– I did recently a research project on this where we spoke to 10 global companies about what they do and everyone was stuck on the building skills taxonomy bit. And in terms of what you’re talking about there, you’ve done that in very kind of staged way. And is the intention to kind of move that up into other roles in the business using the same process?

Nicolle: Exactly. So, one of the big pieces is the more that you can diversify the diversity of thought, diversity of industries, skills, backgrounds, it gives you a much more holistic view of actually what’s been the unlock and how do we continue to use that as a bit of osmosis through the organization. As you become obviously more senior, it probably has to be a much more structured and very much kind of there needs to be continuity that sits with that as well. So, using kind of a honeycomb methodology around what are those key attributes that would be part of the kind of DNA of an individual to set them up for success.

But then also our responsibility as an organization is as people are more senior and we are looking at skills-based hiring, what is that onboarding process and how do we set them up for success to make sure that transition is successful not just for them, but also for the teams in which they’re probably going to manage and lead. So, a duty of care on both sides if you are going to go down that pathway.

Matt: Final question, does technology play a role in this at all?

Nicolle: I think it does actually. So, from that perspective, when we think about the key attributes, technology is only as good as the information that you put in. So, the more that we can use technology, but making sure that actually what we feed technology to use any sort of screening will help us look at keywords and attributes rather than it’s matching a job description to a CV. And actually, then we miss the opportunity to engage with potential great talent. So, when we think about how does technology use the information that it is fed, are we feeding it the right information? I think is a question that we have to ask from a TA perspective.

Matt: If you could just introduce yourself and tell us what you do.

Euan: Yes, certainly. My name is Euan McNair, I’m the Director of Talent Acquisition, Employer Brand & Inclusion at Aegon UK.

Matt: Fantastic stuff. And what are you seeing as the biggest challenges in TA employer branding talent at the moment?

Euan: There’s a plethora. Isn’t there really– I think one of the areas for me of certain focus is hiring manager capability, I think depending on your model. But you’re asking hiring managers to interview and sit down with diverse talent from different backgrounds and I don’t know if in talent acquisition we’re applying enough focus in that area just now. So that’s a real area of interest for me. And again, we can talk about AI and employer brand, but I think when you look into the ways of some of these designs, it’s a huge touch point for that consumer and the employer brand. So, I think that’s where we need to focus now?

Matt: Yeah, no, absolutely. What kind of things are you looking at in terms of sort of improving that at the moment?

Euan: Yeah, we’re on a journey in that space, I think a lot of people naturally are, and I think it ties for me into our inclusion agenda. So, actually, how do we create a culture and an environment where people are curious and willing to let the guard down a little bit and learn at the same time? Unconscious bias naturally will creep in. So, creating that culture of curiosity for people to lean in and learn more about themselves before they sit down and have these conversations, I think is direction of travel certainly.

Matt: I think that’s fascinating because I think there’s so much stuff around the way things have always been done, or this is how I was recruited and therefore this is what we do. And I think the curiosity thing is really great because a lot of these people just don’t question things. That’s how we do it. We don’t kind of ask those questions. And how do you sort of help them ask those questions of themselves of the process?

Euan: Yeah. So, we’re in a redesign phase of that just now. And I think your point is so pertinent and so valid that TA were quite guilty of, “we’ve always done it this way,” the CV, I mean, how old is a CV? The assessment part of the process is very– The questions, we’ve heard them all multiple times, its very competency based, is that getting out of candidates what we need? We should be wanting to set people up for success. I mean, how realistic is an interview? You walk in and there’s three people there interviewing. You don’t ever walk into a meeting like that. You usually know the agenda; you know exactly what’s happening. So, we should be aiming to set people up for success. And I know obviously the John Lewis piece of the published all their interview questions. I think that has to set the tone and has to be the benchmark that we all have to follow from here.

Matt: Do you think that will lead to a kind of a wholesale reinvention of the recruitment process?

Euan: Yeah, for me, it has to change. Again, I was talking about this yesterday to a friend of mine, we talked about agencies, and this is not a [unintelligible 00:40:39] agencies at all, but they came around because of the skills shortage, individuals going away to the war, and then there was a real rise of agencies coming through. But I think the process has to change. I think the multigenerational workforce has to drive some of that change as well. And just because we’ve always done it that way, we need to be more positively disruptive and look at better ways of doing things. Again, we need to look across other industries who evolved probably at pace better than we do and be really challenging ourselves.

Matt: And I think it’s interesting because at the event today, someone brought something up about, well, we should send candidates the transcription of the interview that we recorded. And it kind of split the room straight away. Like people either thought it was a cool idea or just couldn’t get their head around it. And I thought there’s a fascinating illustration of kind of where our thinking is at the moment.

Euan: Yeah, completely. You’re right. It split the room. And look, I think these are the types of discussions we need to have though. We should split the room more often rather than simply comply, because I think we have a duty of care to the candidates that apply to our organization, and let’s not lose sight. And I know we talked about automation and all these good things that we should do, let’s not lose sight of these people that are applying for jobs. They’re mothers, fathers, brothers, sisters, they are people. And whether it’s touching our employer brand, they’re also customers to some of our organizations. We can’t lose sight of these things either.

Matt: As final question on this. You mentioned AI and automation and technology and those kind of things. How do you see that fitting in with this way of thinking?

Euan: Yeah, it’s interesting. I think for me, in terms of being progressive, I think we also need to be balanced. And again, I know we talked about this in the room of what the candidates expect from us as organizations. I think we need to get the balance between where there is technology and human interaction right. Are we doing that holistically as a sector just now? Maybe not. And then maybe naturally has to be nuance for one organization to another. I think we need to be quite progressive in our thinking of where do these touch points lie and what does that interaction look like.

Jo: I’m Jo Grant. I’m Employer Brand Manager at EY for UK and Ireland.

Matt: What are the biggest challenges that you’re seeing at the moment in employer brand and talent acquisition?

Jo: I think the biggest challenge for us is understanding, first of all, what is the problem in employer brand that we’re trying to sell with the marketing that we’re doing, rather than just jumping straight to LinkedIn. I think we’ve still got a big challenge with people thinking that is the only way to market to candidates.

I think secondly, the other challenge is we are fortunate within EY, of having a big TA function with lots of different disciplines. And because we are the center of excellence for employer brand, the asks that we get from the recruiters and being able to facilitate that. So, when we think about going to the strategic stuff that we want to get to, actually we are still bogged down and producing content and delivering the asks of the recruiters who potentially don’t understand the best way to activate something in the market.

Matt: How’s employer brand changing? How are you seeing it innovate? How are you seeing it change to the sort of the market demands at the moment?

Jo: I think ultimately the fact that it’s a discipline in itself is the bit that’s changed is always in it. And there’s still talent acquisition functions out there that have it as part of their remit. But I think what we’ve got to think about doing is not– Again, I keep talking about LinkedIn, but defaulting just to what are we doing on LinkedIn? We got to be where the candidates are. And I think we’ve got a lot more expertise around us and organizations that are helping us with regards to processes and employer brands. So, we actually have processes for employer brand now. It’s not just about trying to create assets and shove them out on portals and hope that they reach people. It’s not that spray and pray. It’s thinking about actually who are we trying to talk to and how do we get the message into them?

Matt: What kind of data do you measure and collect as part of what you do?

Jo: So, we look at lots of different things. We use lots of different external and internal data points. So, we look externally at who is it we’re trying to reach? What’s the talent pool size like? What are the things that resonate with them with regards to what they’re looking at in the market? How do we rank compared with some of our competitors with regards to perception, what do we feel we’re known for externally? And then internally we run focus groups to try and also validate that. So actually, what our people feel are the most important things for them in work, what are the things that they enjoy about their job most? What made them come to EY? What makes them stay there? So actually, then our job is then to marry up and correlate where’s the difference and where do we need to change perceptions.

Matt: And what role is technology playing? I suppose AI in particular, is that changing the way you do things? Do you think that will change the way that things work in the future?

Jo: Oh, I think it absolutely will. I think technology just now there’s loads of tech stacks out there. So, if you think about user generating content and being able to get that into a good place, things like programmatic and social. So how do we use different platforms to enable different marketing campaigns to go out different places at different times and leaning into technology for that? But from an AI perspective, I think the biggest opportunity in AI is how we think about if we capture a people’s story, for example, and we know that it resonates with the audience, how do we use AI to create a whole bunch of different assets in long and short form and video and photography that we can then use and activate?

Matt: My thanks to Dan, George, Susan, Nicki, Euan, Nicolle, Euan, and Jo. Thanks to all the sponsors. Thanks to Chad and Joel from The Chad & Cheese Podcast for collaborating with me. And a final big thank you to Stephen O’Donnell, Adam Gordon, and Stephen McGrath for making the events run so smoothly.

You can follow this podcast on Apple Podcasts, on Spotify, or via your podcasting app of choice. Please also subscribe to our YouTube channel by going to mattalder.tv. You can search all the past episodes @recruitingfuture.com. On that site, you can also subscribe to our newsletter, Recruiting Future Feast, and get the inside track about everything that’s coming up on the show. Thanks very much for listening. I’ll be back next time and I hope you’ll join me.

[music]

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