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Many aspects of how companies hire talent have been set in stone and unquestioned for decades. Even if Talent Acquisition wants to drive change, the power of accepted wisdom among hiring managers and the C-Suite is difficult to challenge. So what happens when the CEO of a business champions a completely different way of doing things?
My guest this week is Jeff Dewing, Group CEO at Cloudfm. Jeff’s story is amazing, and his approach to business is encapsulated in the title of his book, “Doing The Opposite.” When it comes to hiring, Jeff has challenged conventional wisdom around interviews and skills head-on with some spectacular results. I loved this conversation, and it is an absolute must-listen for everyone.
In the interview, we discuss:
• Jeff’s rollercoaster journey to get where he is today
• Where everyone needs autonomy, mastery, and purpose
• Why Cloudfm no longer use interviews in their hiring process and what they do instead of
• Removing the risk in hiring
• Achieving a 95% recruitment retention rate
• Individual career plans and ups killing
• Giving people autonomy about how and where they work.
• The office as a creative, problem-solving collaboration space
• The impact AI will have on the future.
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Matt: Hi, this is Matt. Just before we start the show, I want to tell you about a free white paper that I’ve just published on AI and talent acquisition. We all know that AI is going to dramatically change recruiting. But what will that really look like?
For example, imagine a future where AI can predict your company’s future talent needs, build dynamic, external and internal talent pools, craft personalized candidate experiences and intelligently automate recruitment marketing.
The new white paper 10 ways AI will transform talent acquisition doesn’t claim to have all the answers, but it does explore the most likely scenarios on how AI will impact recruiting. So, get a head start on planning and influencing the future of your talent acquisition strategy. You can download your copy of the white paper at mattalder.me/transform.
[Recruiting Future theme]
Hi, there. Welcome to Episode 511 of Recruiting Future with me, Matt Alder.
Many aspects of how companies hire talent have been set in stone and unquestioned for decades. Even if talent acquisition wants to drive change, the power of accepted wisdom among hiring managers and the C-Suite is difficult to challenge. So, what happens when the CEO of a business champions a completely different way of doing things?
My guest this week is Jeff Dewing, Group CEO at Cloudfm. Jeff’s story is amazing, and his approach to business is encapsulated in the title of his book, Doing the Opposite. When it comes to hiring, Jeff has challenged conventional wisdom around interviews and skills head-on with some spectacular results. I loved this conversation, and it is an absolute must-listen for everyone.
Hi, Jeff. And welcome to the podcast.
Jeff: Hi. How are you doing? I can’t wait to get into the chat.
Matt: Absolutely. Well, it’s a pleasure to have you on the show. Please could you perhaps start by introducing yourself and telling everyone what you do?
Jeff: Certainly. I’m Jeff Dewing. I’m an entrepreneur. I run quite a large business based in the UK, but also operates across Europe, and Singapore and Asia Pacific. I began as a fridge engineer when I left school with no qualifications other than a maths O level, and I’ve got no idea how I achieved that. Since then, I just went into the world of learning very, very quickly.
Matt: Absolutely. Tell us a little bit more about what your business does, but also the backstory behind setting up and growing it.
Jeff: Certainly. So, I don’t know why, it must have been in my genes, but I was born very ambitious. I’ve got no way of actually articulating why or how, but I just always wanted toprogress. I didn’t know what progressing was other than being better or more well paid than I was previously. But as time went on and you become more mature, you start to find your way and understand what that means.
So, one example is, I was 16-year-old. I was apprenticed in a refrigeration company. My trade was refrigeration. At 17-years-old, after I’d been making the tea for a year and thought why am I here. I made a statement to a group of guys in the canteen where we were installing some refrigeration at Sainsbury’s and I said, “I’ll be a supervisor by the time I’m 19.” These guys started laughing and heckling me, calling me stupid as they did, because I was the apprentice and I was a bit cocky. They said, “We’ve been here 25 years and we’ve never made supervisor. What’s the matter with you?”
It was something at the time I didn’t think about until I reflected back. But what I’d done is I’d set a goal, and nothing was going to stop me getting that goal. I was 19 years in February. In July, I went to a company meeting. There was 45 engineers there. The service manager stuck and said, “We’ve got announcement to make. We have a promotion and we have a new supervisor.” Everyone was looking around, and then suddenly, he looked up at me and he chucked me the car keys, because the supervisor comes in his state car, as opposed to a van. He threw these keys to me and I went, “Oh, my God.” All it had was I just had this focus on becoming I had to become a supervisor. I’d said it out loud, therefore I had to deliver it.
That shaped the rest of my life, although I didn’t know why until later in life when I was able to articulate the importance of setting goals. That was the start of a journey of realizing when you have a goal and you laser focus, you can achieve anything.
So then moving on to where I am today, I worked for 10 years as an employee. I then started my own business. There’s a backstory to that as well. It’s all in my book. But I ran a business. It was very, very successful. Grew it from 0 to about $5 million, $6 million turnover as a contractor installing air conditioning. I was living like a king. Went off and bought a football club, a non-league football club. Was living the dream.
But during that time, my wife said, “Why are you buying a football club?” The honesty, when I put the mirror up was I was bored. I was bored of my own business. I couldn’t get it beyond $5 million. I’d employed great people that were better than me, but still couldn’t solve the problem. I lost interest. Bought the football club to try and stimulate a bit of energy.
As a result of that, I took my eye off the business. The business, as a result, failed because I wasn’t there and I took my eye off it. That sent me into bankruptcy, which was the worst time of my life and the time I felt the most guilty, because I’d let my wife down, my family down. I had three young kids and I felt terrible. Went hiding for about nine months until eventually I just woke up and said, “You’ve got to life out.”
The first thing I said, “What have I got to do?” I realized that during that 10 years of running that business and living in big houses and having lavish cars and stuff and believing that I knew it all because I was so successful was that realization that I knew absolutely nothing and I needed to go and learn. So, I went back into the world of employeeship. Because of my position and my experience, I was able to secure senior board positions and went on a journey of seven years of learning all the things that I needed to have learned in the first place.
As a result of that, I then started my current business, cloud, in 2012. We now employ a circa 200 people. We grew from 0 again to $80 odd million in four years. So, it was a roller coaster journey, applying all the lessons I’d missed earlier when we were all young. Yeah, and living the dream.
Matt: Absolutely. Now, your podcast and your book are both called Doing the Opposite. Give us some examples of how you do the opposite in the business that you’ve got.
Jeff: Let’s think of one example. In our world of facilities management, it’s a similar world to construction. And in construction or facilities, you tend to offer a service to a client, and that client will pay you in 30 days, 60 days, 90 days or only in 20 days subject to who they are. Payment is obviously a big issue, because cash is king. We all know that.
So, I decided that one of the challenges I had in my first business was, I spent 70% of my time chasing money to pay the salaries, the VAT and [unintelligible 00:07:55]. And therefore, I was spending 30% of my time doing what I loved and doing what I was good at.
So, when I started the second business, all the lessons I’d learned, I said, “Right, there’s one thing I’m going to do. I’m never going to have to chase money. I want to spend 100% of my time building a business, growing the business and doing what I love.” So, the way I did that was I broke all the rules. I basically built some technology that enabled us to do the things that we do that’s different in the industry and created something that the clients wanted so badly they would agree to anything.
So, in our world now, we carry out a service for our clients. We invoice on the Monday, they pay us on the Tuesday, so we give 24 hours credit. This is global brands. So, this is not just local people. This is global brands that we’re talking about. So, we cut an invoice for a million quid on Monday, we get paid on the Tuesday. We then pay our supply chain 30 days later. So, I’ve now got negative working capital, so I’ve got cash in the bank, which means I never have to chase money. So, that’s one example of doing the opposite.
When I suggested to my colleagues when we were building business, “That’s what I wanted to do,” they looked at me like I’ve got two heads. No one will ever agree to that and yet, everybody agrees to it. But it’s not as simple as that. But that’s the principle. I was relentless on making sure that happened.
When someone says, “Why do you do the opposite? “I’d have said to you, “I don’t know,” until I wrote the book. Writing the book, I was told to go and research my childhood, where you go back and you look at pictures and you reflect on your child, a lot of which you’ve forgotten, because it’s just buried somewhere in your mind. The best way to free that mind is to look at every photograph your parents ever took of you, and so on so, which I did over about four weekends, looking at hundreds and hundreds of photographs. I couldn’t believe the memories unlocked.
But one memory unlocked was when someone said to me, “Why’d you do the opposite and I didn’t know.” I then reflected on something happened in my childhood that then gave me clarity on why I do the opposite.
So, I was a young 13 years old, 14-year-old. Actually, no, I was 15 at the time. I had some friends at school that were a couple of years older than me and they’d left school and they had their RD 250 motorbikes and living the dream and I’m still at school in my school uniform. They were then going up the pub, because they were no longer at school. They come to me and say, “Do you want to come to the pub, Jeff?” And I went, “Yeah, I’ll come to the pub, but I’ve got no money.” And they said, “Oh, don’t worry. We’ll buy you a pint.” So, I’m at of the pub and I was lucky enough to be able to get away with looking old enough to go in the pub.
So, in the pub, I went, have a few beers, get a bit drunk, go home, the room’s spinning, go to sleep and so on, so on. That was all part of feeling, growing up. And then after about a week, I realized I couldn’t keep going at the pub, so I had no money. Now, my dad run his own business at the time, electronic shop in Tottenham, and he used to come home every night with a briefcase. In that briefcase was a brown paper bag full of the day’s takings in £1 notes, £5 notes, £10 notes and so on.
I, stupidly, as a kid at the time, through desperate, want to keep up with joneses and my friends, I would get up 6 o’clock in the morning because my dad never got out of bed before 09:00, because he worked until 2 o’clock in the morning and I’d take a fiver out of his case. And now I’ve got a fiver for some beer. That lasted about three days before I got caught red handed by my mom. And she said, “I think you better go to school now and your father will talk to you when he gets home.” Of course, my dad, who was a great father, never, ever laid a finger on us. But oh, my God, was we frightened about what he was going to say.
So, I went for school. Now my whole day’s ruined, thinking, “That’s it. When I go home tonight, I’m dead.” Anyway, I went home 03:30, 4 o’clock. No sign of your dad’s car. He never gets home till 1 o’clock in the morning. Next day, same thing, no car. Next day, same thing, no car. So, I’m thinking, “Wow, I’ve got away with this.” And then finally, on the fourth day, I’m walking down the road and it’s 03:45 and my dad’s car’s outside, so I go, “Oh, shit, it’s all over. I’m done.”
So, I walked in the kitchen, he said, “Hello, son.” I said, “Hello, dad.” He said, “Then, what are you doing?” So, I said, “I just got to do my homework really.” He said, “How long that’ll take?” I said, “About 20 minutes.” He said, “All right, go do your homework.” So, I did my homework. And of course, I’m struggling to do my homework now, because I’m wondering what else is going to happen. So, I then go back downstairs to the kitchen. “Let’s go for a trip. I’ll take a little drive.” So, I’m thinking that he’s going to take the woods and kill me. I just had no idea.
So, anyway, we went on this drive and went to Leytonstone High Road, which was where I lived at the time. There was an Airfix shop there. Some people may remember an Airfix shop. You get all Airfix models, airplanes and so on. There was this huge plane hanging from the ceiling, which was in kit. It was all put together, but you bought it in kit form. It’s like a rally-controlled aircraft. So, you put servos in it and you could fly this thing and see, you’d add a little petrol engine and so on. He said, “Do you fancy that?” And I went, “Well, hell, yeah. Of course, I do. I’d love to do that.”
So, he said, “We’re going to buy that.” He bought the airplane, bought loads of servos. We got back. He said, “We’re now going to spend the next month building this plane, and then we’re going to go up to [unintelligible 00:12:51] planes, we’re going to fly it.” So, I said, “Okay, well.” He never once mentioned anything about the money. And that night, the first night we sat down and we’ve got all this kit out and all this balsa wood and stuff like that, I got a phone call. My mom shouts out, “Jeff, a call for you.” I went, it was my mate said, “You come out of the pub tonight?” I went, “No, no I’m not coming up. I’m working with my dad doing this thing.”
So, anyway, we spent the next three or four weeks and two things happened. He suddenly was home at 4 o’clock every day, which he never had been all my childhood. We were building this plane together where were having a lot of fun. We then took it out and we flew it. And suddenly, this relationship just grew into something that I could have only ever dreamed of.
The downside, of course, is I’ve got my two sisters saying, “Hang on a minute, he’s stolen a load of money [chuckles] and he’s now been given presents. I don’t get it.” But what he did was he stopped me worrying about going to the pub, he changed the whole dimension about whatever. Whereas most parents would have said, “In your room, you’re grounded for a month,” blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So, he did the complete opposite and had a spectacular result.
Matt: That’s fantastic. What a fantastic story.
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Focusing in on the people part of your business, obviously, lots of people listening, work in recruiting are probably trying to do things differently. It’s very dynamic time in the world of recruiting right now. How important a part of your business is recruiting and how do you do it differently to your competition, for example?
Jeff: I guess, like everybody, we all go on a journey. We learn every day. Every day is a school day. The one thing that really hit me hard in the last 10 years of building this business was realising that command control doesn’t work, and people do not want to be told what to do. They never will. Therefore, how are we going to do things differently?
So, there’s three things that every human being wants and needs. They need autonomy, they need mastery and they need purpose. They’re different. They mean different things to different people, but that’s what every human being wants and needs. When they’re at home and they’re buying a house or they’re getting a mortgage or they’re picking the kids up from school, they’re buying uniforms, they have autonomy. They make their decisions. That’s when they’re their best.
So, I decided 10 years ago that interviews weren’t fit for purpose. We stopped doing interviews probably seven years ago in their current form. What I want to do is an interview for me is still a flip of a coin. You can ask a load of the same questions, get the same answers. I work great as an individual and I work great as a team, “Really? Okay, great.” So, I’ve written that on every CV. So, what do we do differently? How do we truly get under the skin of somebody?
So, all we did is we changed the rules. We said, “If you’re going to come for a job in this business, whether it’s an apprentice or a board director, you will have to come and spend two days with us and our teams.” It’s a structured two days where we do things. One of the things we do is we build rockets out of spaghetti. The whole point of the exercise is you’ll have two or three or four candidates that are coming in for different roles, and there’ll be three or four of our existing teams, as well as the interviewer for one or the hirer. They go for a structured process.
What we’re doing is we’re working out how they behave, how they with themselves, with other people and how they react to certain situations, which is where the structured days come into play. You create environments to truly get under the skin of people. And then what we then do is at the end of that two-day session, we’ll then sit and have a chat with them on a one to one for half an hour, ask them about how they found the two days, what they found about the business, how did they find the colleagues. And of course, they’re free to talk to the existing people. So, I’m not having to do a selling job on them. They’re going to find out for themselves the people that actually live and work here.
Then what happens is, before we actually make any form of decision, we then go back to the four or five people that were part of the team, that were engaging with these people. We say, “Tell me your assessment of those people.” They will tell you things that you saw or you didn’t see. So, now suddenly, I’m removing the risk by 100 or 90 odd percent, because I’ve now got five sets of eyes with a view rather than the interviewer. As a result of doing that, we have a 95% success rate of recruiting and retaining, because those people end up– They were behaving how they would always behave eventually. So, you see the real them. You don’t say, “We deviate away from. Wait until they join. And in three months, you’ll know if they’re right or not.” Well, we’ve taken away all that risk.
Matt: Yeah. What about the people who go through that process and don’t get the role? Do you give them feedback?
Jeff: Absolutely. Even if we can see on day one, they’re not going to make it, we will speak to them day one and say, “Look, you’re not quite getting into the environment. These are the reasons why we are very candid.” Sensitive, but candid, which means they’ve got absolute clarity on what they need to do if they wanted to get through that process next time.
But most of it is all down to values. It’s about how they behave, what’s important to them. The philosophy we have is that you must care more about the person on your left and the person on your right than you do yourself. If you demonstrate that, then you stand a very good chance of joining our business. All of it is about looking after each other. I think that’s the biggest driver where people suddenly– Anyone that says, “Yeah, but what about me?” is the red flag that you say, “You’re probably not going to make the second day.”
Matt: What about skills and experience? Presumably people have to have a certain level of skill to do some of the roles, but how much does that factor into the decision?
Jeff: Skills is about 20%, trustworthiness is probably about 60% and the rest is driven by desire and attitude. So, for me, it’s about what is your attitude is probably the single biggest driver. We can train skills easily. So, skills is not the focal point. Yes, as you say, you need a base skill, but it really is driven by attitude and the desire to help other people. That’s the biggest driver for success of getting a place in our business.
Matt: Fantastic. What about developing people? You mentioned you’ve got very high rates of retention there. Do you develop people’s skills? Is that a big part of what you do?
Jeff: Perhaps, I’ll give you a quick story that might illustrate it. First and foremost, this is where mastery comes in. Everybody wants to get better at what they do. It’s a golden rule of humanity. So, how do we give people the ability to get better? Well, there’s loads of ways you can do that. You can spend a load of money on training them and semi training courses, because that makes the employer feel better, because I’ve sent you on some training.
But what you do is you have to go for a career plan with everybody. Everyone’s got to have at least a five-year career plan. That career plan can change direction. It can deviate. But there has to be a plan. There has to be clarity on what that person wants to do, where they want to get to, what they want to achieve.
One of the stories I want to give you is a lady that joined us six years ago. She joined as financial controller. Her career plan was, “I want to be a financial director.” She was reporting me at the time and I said, “Right. Well, let’s get on that journey of getting you ready for to be an FD.” Then over the next two or three years, she said, “Well, I’m a little bit despondent, because there’s no way that I’m going to be an FD here, because you’ve got this person who’s already FD, you’ve got this person as a CFO. They’re very young, very dynamic, very bought into the business. So, there’s not going to be an opportunity,”
And I said, “But you’re missing the point. My job is not to make you FD in this business. My job is to make you an FD. If you end up coming to the point of being an FD and there’s no place here, my job is to help you secure an FD role somewhere else. That’s the job. It’s not about your opportunity in this business. It’s your opportunity in your life that matters.”
Matt: Fantastic. We’re four years since the start of the pandemic now, and lots of businesses still seem to be arguing with themselves about whether they should have people in the office, be hybrid, be remote from the office, all those kind of things appears to be a debate that’s still unbelievably still running. What does your company do? What’s your thoughts around that? How did the pandemic change your business?
Jeff: Pre-pandemic, we had seven offices across the UK and Europe with about 100 people in each office, 50 people in other offices. We were doing the traditional thing. Everybody loved it, because it was a great working environment, great culture. The pandemic came along and it changed everything. It taught us, us being leadership, us being the owners, “Oh, my God, we can run this entire business from home effectively.”
When everyone went home, we did a survey about six weeks later to see how people were, and 85% said, “We hate it. We want to get back to the office.” Obviously, we couldn’t go back to the office, because the law said you couldn’t. We were all at home. And then in the July of that year, we surveyed everybody again. And 85% said, “We love it,” because they’d learnt to adapt. As a result of that, they also realized the freedom they had in picking the kids up from school, not having to ask permission, etc, etc, etc.
So, what we learned from that very, very quickly was we shut six of our offices, and we refitted the one major head office that we had into a collaboration center, which means there’s no desks. It’s just couches, big TVs, pool tables, etc, etc. We created a philosophy that said, “We’re going to give each and every one of you total 100% authentic autonomy. You decide when you go to the office, you decide when you stay at home. And the rules you want to apply is you only go to the office to solve problems, be creative and have fun. They’re the only three reasons you go to the office, you transact at home.”
What then happens is I’ve had so many debates with people who said, “Yeah, but what about the coffee morning chats?” I very bravely shout, “They’re worthless. They have never had any value whatsoever, because it was never authentic. You’d ask how was your weekend and then say, I’ve got to go and have a call now.”
But what we found was that when teams have the autonomy to say, “Right, let’s meet at the office in next week. We haven’t seen each other six weeks. We want to solve this problem or create the solution.” When they turn up, they don’t say good morning. They cuddle because it’s such a richer environment. It’s such a richer thing, because you’ve not seen each other six weeks. And the team bonding has gone off the scale, performance has gone off the scale.
When people say, “Yeah, but how do I know what they’re doing?” You’re asking the wrong question. Give people absolute clarity on the outcome that you want to achieve and that they want to achieve, and then let them achieve it their way and you’ll be amazed at the results. But you’ve got to have the courage to do it. It’s the best thing we’ve ever done and we will never deviate.
Matt: So, as a final question, there will be lots of people listening who are trying to drive change in their business, trying to make their business think differently about recruitment or people or all those kind of things, but obviously, are coming up against a lot of barriers. What would your advice be to people who want to drive that kind of change within organizations? How do they get buy in and how do they do it?
Jeff: The first golden rule is how do you eat an elephant. That’s the question, Matt. One bite at a time. That’s how you eat an elephant. Where people go wrong is they try to eat the elephant. So, what you do is you have a structure and a plan to eat the elephant, and then you decide where you start on what journey you go on.
So, the first depend upon what the change is– I also do a lot of keynotes, and one of the things I love to drive silence in an audience. I had an audience one day where I said, “I’ve never met a single person, a single client, a single supplier in my entire career that doesn’t love change.” And of course, everyone goes silent. Looks at me like I’ve got two heads.
I said, “But everybody I’ve met in my career doesn’t like the uncertainty of change. It’s not the change itself. It’s about how does that affect me or my team.” So, if you’re going to go through any form of change, the first thing you do is you engage your teams to say, “This is how the change is going to impact you. This is the impact it’s going to have on you and or your teams.” Once they have that clarity and they’re engaged in that journey and they can have a voice in that journey, the change is simple.
Matt: Makes a lot of sense. As a final, final question, [chuckles] because I just want to ask you another question, how do we look to the future? What impact do you think AI might have on business, on people? What are you seeing from your perspective?
Jeff: What I’m seeing is the word AI being banded about and 10% understand. I don’t want this to sound condescending. I apologize if it does. But 10% understand AI, 90% pretend to understand AI, because it’s the word everybody’s using. What businesses need to do like they all need, every business needs to do is that is the most successful businesses are the ones that fail faster than anybody else. And to fail fast, you have to try new things. If you don’t try new things, you’ll never fail, you’ll never learn. You have to try new things.
We’re a tech business. So, we’ve got developers building software and all sorts of sexy stuff, and it’s all fantastic. But I’ve also got a team of 180 odd people that are not techies, that are not IT, they’re not developers. Currently, they’re just sitting back relying on if I want something, I go to the development team. So, we brought in a specialist team from the US, probably four months ago now, and we brought a team of 30 of our people into a three-day session where they learn how they can use AI in their everyday lives, whether they’re a secretary, whether they’re an account manager, whether they’re a HR specialist, where they can be self-sufficient in the power of AI and how we can make their jobs far quicker, far more effective, and so on so.
What that then done was exposed them to the art of the possible, which blew them away. They have now become champions in AI. They maintain the governance of AI, because you have to have some governance around it. Otherwise, people can go off and do silly things under GDPR problems and so on so. You go for a stress process that says, “Here’s the safe environment from within which you can work.” And now suddenly, people that were spending a day to solve a problem are spending three and a half seconds solving that problem because of the power of AI.
So, you have to engage the average person, if there is such a thing. You have to engage the people that are not techie and not developers. It’s interesting that some people that don’t even know how to use Outlook were just thriving on AI, because they just found their creative selves. And it’s a powerful stuff. So, my advice is engage your teams, create a safe environment and a controlled environment and let them fly.
Matt: Jeff, thank you very much for talking to me.
Jeff: You’re more than welcome. Enjoyed it.
Matt: My thanks to Jeff. You can follow this podcast on Apple Podcasts, on Spotify or via your podcasting app of choice. Please also subscribe to our YouTube channel, which you can find by going to mattalder.tv.
You can search all the past episodes at recruitingfuture.com. On that site, you can also subscribe to our monthly newsletter, Recruiting Future Feast, and get the inside track about everything that’s coming up on the show. Thanks very much for listening. I’ll be back next time and I hope you’ll join me.
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