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Ep 546: Transforming Frontline Hiring

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Frontline hiring continues to be highly challenging with ongoing labour shortages in many countries. The business impact of understaffing is both significant and quantifiable, meaning hiring speed is a critical lever for business value and competing effectively in a competitive talent market.

So, how can employers speed up their processes while offering a great candidate experience and improving retention?

My guest this week is Joshua Secrest, VP of Client Advocacy at Paradox. During his time as a Global TA leader for McDonald’s, Josh used technology to reduce frontline hiring times from 21 days to 3 days. He is continuing to help employers automate recruiting and innovate with AI at Paradox, and he has many valuable insights to share.

In the interview, we discuss:

• The current challenges in frontline hiring

• Business impacts of understaffing

• Having the ear of the C-Suite

• The critical importance of speed and moving fast at every stage of the process

• Turnoever and retention

• The power of automation

• The role of AI and the role of humans

• Delivering an excellent candidate and hiring manager experience

• The importance of simple, intuitive interfaces

• Speed of adoption in recruiting automation and advice to TA leaders

• Plugging generative AI into conversational AI

• What does talent acquisition look like in five years?

Listen to this podcast on Apple Podcasts.

Transcript:

Matt Alder: Support for this podcast is provided by Paradox, the conversational AI Company helping global talent acquisition teams at Unilever, McDonald’s, and CVS Health get recruiting work done faster. Let’s face it, talent acquisition is full of boring administrative tasks that drag the hiring process down and create frustrating experiences for everyone. Paradox’s AI Assistant, Olivia, is shaking up that paradigm, automating things like applicant screening, interview scheduling, and candidate Q&A. So, recruiters can spend more time with people, not software.

Curious how Olivia can work for your team? Then visit paradox.ai to learn more.

[The Recruiting Future Podcast theme]

Matt Alder: Hi, there. This is Matt Alder. Welcome to episode 546 of The Recruiting Future Podcast. Frontline hiring continues to be highly challenging with ongoing labor shortages in many countries. The business impact of understaffing is both significant and quantifiable, meaning hiring speed is a critical lever for business value and competing effectively in a competitive talent market. So, how can employers speed up their processes while offering a great candidate experience and improving retention? My guest this week is Joshua Secrest, VP of Client Advocacy at Paradox.

During his time, as a global TA leader for McDonald’s, Josh used technology to reduce frontline hiring times from 21 days to three days. He’s continuing to help employers automate recruiting and innovate with AI at Paradox and has many valuable insights to share.

Matt Alder: Hi, Josh, and welcome to the podcast.

Josh: Matt, thanks so much for having me. I’m a huge fan. So, I’m really pumped to be here and pick your brain.

Matt Alder: Fantastic. Well. It’s absolutely brilliant to have you on the show. Finally. Can you just introduce yourself and tell everyone what you do?

Josh: Oh, my gosh. Yeah. I’m Joshua Secrest. I’m the Vice President, Marketing & Client Advocacy out at Paradox. Talk a little bit about Paradox here in a second, but a leader in hiring automation conversational AI. I’ve been a talent acquisition, talent leader for past almost 20 years. Was able to cut my teeth at Abercrombie & Fitch and Hollister brands, sat in just about every HR seat. Got to be a niche business partner, got to lead culture and philanthropy and global talent acquisition there. Then got to join McDonald’s and was the head of global talent acquisition at McDonald’s, as well as talent strategy. So, within that role, got to support both corporate hiring as well as our owner operators and our restaurant hiring. We were doing about 2 million hires per year within restaurants. So, I have just always had this passion for how do you build great teams and have those teams help drive your business?

While the start of my career was really focused on doing that at a corporate level. McDonald’s lit a fire under just how much innovation could happen and how much you could help drive business results through transforming frontline hiring. So, just really excited about that. I got to meet Paradox at McDonald’s. Paradox really came in and helped us retool and transform everything that we were doing, especially within our restaurants. They helped us go from hiring in roughly 21 days to down to three days, automated a lot of things so our managers could step away from the process. They were spending usually about seven hours a week trying to hire people and going back and forth and scheduling. We were able to automate to about two hours or saving five hours per week. Then a lot of our customers were also our candidates.

I mean, there’s almost 100% overlap. So, it was neat to be able to see a 99% candidate satisfaction rate come out of there. So, just lots of light bulbs came up within that experience. Was excited to be able to join Paradox and help build some really cool things and help clients here.

Matt Alder: It’s certainly been a very interesting two or three years. Well, for everything. But if we zero in on frontline hiring, incredibly disruptive time in terms of what’s been going on. What are the main challenges that you’re seeing in that market at the moment?

Josh: Yeah, one, you’ve got such an amazing global reach, so you’ve got some different challenges probably by market. I’ll do my best to tackle this at a global scale, and I’ll let you know as I dive into the US. But in a lot of our markets, we’re seeing that labor demand is outpacing labor supply for almost the first time in the last couple decades. So, what does that mean in super simple terms, it means there are way more jobs than there are unemployed folks to be able to fill those jobs. I think that’s a really interesting piece because in some of our markets, we’re hearing all about maybe layoffs or reductions, but almost all of that’s happening in the corporate professional setting, that white collar force. Whereas, when you look at it, at a whole, at least within the US, means there are only about 6.3 million unemployed workers right now, this month, we’re recording this in August, it’s about a 3.5% unemployment rate. You compare that to open roles, which is almost north of 11 million.

So, maybe that’s the first piece is, like, “Wow,” there’s a lot of competition for the unemployed workforce or for those that are currently employed. So, that’s interesting. That puts a strain on this, and I think it’s being disproportionately felt in frontline. So, that’s probably one.

Two is all technology has gotten better, and we’re going to go into how technology has gotten better, and it’s made things really simple on a lot of different ends. But I think it also means that job boards like Indeed and Google jobs has also gotten better but what that means for us as employers is you’re seeing a lot of applicants who are snatched up within 24 hours of the time they apply.

The Indeed data right now is basically saying that people apply frontline positions. People apply to about 15 jobs every week. So, if you get an application, it means that you’re pretty much racing, not only against the economy, but you’re also racing against probably 14 other employers who are trying to get back to that candidate in the same week. So, it’s resulted in just some really interesting numbers that people are paying attention to at the C-suite level.

We serve about 40,000 restaurants at Paradox, so get to really get my hands dirty there and try and help solve the staff. Right now, 62% of restaurants are saying that they’re understaffed to meet consumer demands. So, when you’re hitting that type of level, what starts to happen is, our C-suite is starting to get involved. They’re starting to see how understaffing can actually impact customer service revenue, usually spikes turnover. So, a lot of different things that we get into, but I think we are just at this headwind. But it is a bifurcated group because it’s a little bit more disproportionate on the front line than it is how we’re feeling it on the corporate side.

Matt Alder: What I think is really interesting about that is the way that you can almost precisely track business value and revenue and then profit to how successful you are in frontline hiring and getting people on board and getting people up to speed. Talk us through some of the specific consequences you’re seeing for employers with these kind of problems.

Josh: Yeah, one of the ways that I like to frame it, and again, this is frontline hiring because we’ve got almost put a different mindset on frontline hiring than we do corporate hiring. So, maybe one of the questions I would ask is, “Does your C-suite care if you can hire in three days versus three weeks when a location of yours is understaffed?” I would say, “At the top of my lungs, oh, my goodness, yes, they do.” The longer that you’re taking to hire your C-suite, I think, is very in tune with if you’re understaffed, you’re going to have productivity loss during that time when you’re understaffed. So, during that time, your potential revenues are taking a hit.

Think about that in a restaurant, the lines get longer for the drive through. What do we do when we see long drive through lines? We move on. We find the next Starbucks. We find the next McDonald’s. We find the next Burger King. What happens when those lines, why they’re getting long is because we’re not able to fill the orders as fast. So, our ticket times are slowing. So, during peak hours, we’re starting to see that the revenues coming in are decreasing because you don’t have the staff to fulfill these orders. Take that in retail. What does that mean in retail? It means you’re probably not stocking your shelves as well. You maybe have fewer cash registers that are open.

Again, you have people with arms of clothes that are potentially walking off and saying, “Hey, I might purchase another day.” So, you’ve got this really real short term revenue loss, the longer it’s taking for you to hire. The second piece is you’ve got customers interacting with your location, under optimized, and so they’re essentially having a poorer experience and potentially that’s a negative review. That’s potentially not coming back as a return customer.

From bottom line perspective, there are actually more costs with hiring slowly as well. You’re spending more time trying to get rounds and rounds of interviews and candidates through. You’re getting really frustrated because you’ve got more drop off. You’re spending more money on job boards because you’re not getting the candidate and the flow through. Ultimately, that means that it’s really hard to get your stores back to optimize because what you’re also starting to see is your turnover rates start to increase because the leftover remaining staff, you’re stretched, then you’re not necessarily getting paid anymore, you’re getting less ideal hours, and you’re getting frustrated. There’s a lot more sweat equity having to be put in.

So, I just think it’s a really interesting piece and it’s something that during COVID as we started to rebound back, what we saw was some of the largest employers in the world, the McDonald’s and the Compass Groups and the Nestle’s and the General Motors were some of the first to transform hiring at the frontline. Because what they were starting to see is that there was real business impact. If they could hire faster, then all of these good things start to happen. You’re spending less, your stores or your locations are operating how you would want them to be operating. You’re bringing in more revenue. Ultimately, you’re chipping away at that turnover. So, all these good things start to happen. I just want to juxtapose that maybe to how you and I think about corporate recruiting– when we do this for our corporate or professional roles, which I would say, “Do I care about time to hire?” I do. I think it’s an interesting metric. It’s not my most important metric. I would much rather hire you, Matt, and wait three more weeks to be able to get you relative to maybe somebody who’s not as qualified for the role.

Whereas that totally flips in frontline hiring. The faster you hire, the more candidates you can choose from. It essentially drives better quality because you can find people who maybe align with values or their schedules align and it yields all these positive things for your business. So, I’ve just been really excited by that, maybe my last example here, Matt is, you look at data within QSR, Quick Service Restaurants, and you’re talking about drive through, in particularly maybe hits on revenue and you are understaff happened during peak hours. So, let’s think about that during breakfast, lunch, dinner time, not the slow periods. Like a Quick Service Restaurant, you can lose typically, you’d leave about $200 to $1,000 on the table, if you’re understaffed, and that’s usually understaffed by one person, just that one tick down in understaffing. I’d like to run those numbers, so let’s just take a number in the middle there.

Let’s say $500 you’re losing per day. If you’re taking 21 days to hire, then you’re leaving about $10,500 on the table for every single hire. If you can now hire in three days, now you’re recouping about $9,000 per hire. Did you lose those three days? Sure, yeah you left $1,500 on the table. Would you prefer to never be understaffed? You actually would. Getting back $9,000 per hire, especially for most of your listeners who have global brands or hundreds of restaurants or hundreds of locations, you start to multiply that out, and holy cow. I mean, back to McDonald’s, we were hiring two million people per year, that is significant return. I think that is what fires me up, because it is such a very specific way that TA leaders and HR leaders are getting a seat at the table because it’s very clear to our C-suite that this drives revenue, this saves costs.

Matt Alder: Before we move on and talk about how companies are getting better at doing this, I suppose. there’s just a couple of things I want to maybe pull out of what you said. I suppose, the first thing is more of an observation is when you were talking about corporate hiring there, you were talking about in terms of weeks, but really, this is almost quantifiable in terms of minutes, isn’t it? [laughs] Basically in terms of speed.

Josh: Yeah, it’s been great. We’ve been able to run research in frontline hiring as we look at some of our top 10, top 15 performing companies, but the data sets over a million applicants. What we’re seeing is, speed is critical. So, we’re starting to see the average in the market is usually about 14 days to hire, and slow is usually around 21 days. We’re seeing our top performers hiring in three to four days. Some are even doing it in same day or 36 hours. What they’re doing differently is they think about it at every single stage of the applicant process, they’re moving fast. So, applications went from probably what most of us are used to 20 minutes long forms to those are being done in two minutes, almost always with a mobile device via chat, eliminating logins, and passwords.

Then, I think the magic is not only making the application easy, so you’ve got someone doing that in two minutes, but behind the scenes, you’ve been able to say, “Hey, they need to be X aged to work here. They need to be qualified to work within the country. They maybe need to have two years of service experience.” You can actually qualify instantly into the next stage, which is then scheduling. Scheduling, we can then automate that process so you can say, “Hey, we actually have open time today or open time tomorrow. Text us back, which time you’d prefer.” So, now you have a part of the process that used to take three days. I know that’s what it was for us, McDonald’s. It took us three days to try and get someone screened and then scheduled, at which point we saw drop off, now happening in three minutes. It’s almost instantaneous after someone’s applied.

So, think about the advantage as we tie that back to this. Like, “Oh, people are applying to 15 jobs on Indeed at one time.” Well, if you can be the first one to say, “Hey, Matt, you qualify, and Matt, we have this interview for you later on today,” you already have this advantage. Then we’re seeing our best clients. They’re basically having their managers because in frontline, it’s not always a centralized TA team. Sometimes, it’s typically the manager of the location is then being able to interview them, oftentimes within 24 hours, if not the same day. They’re making an offer, usually right after that interview. If you have them going through the background check, it’s usually 48 hours or less, and some are even finding ways to make that faster. So, you’re just seeing all this move at hyper speed, but at no point in the process are you kind of taking your foot off the gas.

Matt Alder: That speaks well to the second point that I was going to make, which was about hiring manager time. Now, it’s something that you mentioned as we were talking through that. I mean, is that quantifiable in terms of the effect on the business if hiring managers are constantly having to arrange interviews, do interviews, find people, deal with cancellations, all those things?

Josh: Yeah, I think it’s a critical one for us because I think there are two really important points here. One is our manager operates as our recruiter, that’s one. Two, they’re doing that when they’re understaffed. I think that’s really critical because when it’s understaffed, back to what we were previously talking about, it’s when we see turnover rates start to spike. We see that in crew or team member positions, but we actually also see it in manager positions. The reason we see it is because a typical manager of a location, I can’t help but think about retail and restaurants here. They’re kind of superheroes. They’re running the business, they’re putting out fires with customers, they’re keeping the restaurant clean, they’re training staff. Then when they’re understaffed, they’re also having to operate a business that is short staff, that needs help, that is strained, that customers potentially are getting more incorrect orders, slower ticket times, so they need to resolve.

Then we’re asking them to recruit and hire, oftentimes with a clunky system and a clunky process. So, where we’re at, where we now start to have this commercial grade technology that is automating and that’s a big part for Paradox, where we’ve been able to be this market leader. I think the genius of our CEO was really leaning into automation early on. So, we could get really great at it is, how do we get these managers to spend more time with their people and customers and less time with software? So, automate just about everything up until the point of the interview and then just about everything afterwards. You can toggle on what you want them involved with, but that’s ending up saving them these five plus hours, which to your question, I’m like, “Is that valuable?” It’s like, “Oh my goodness, it’s valuable.”

Not only is that valuable even in a moment where you are staffed because I would much rather than spend time looking at sales, overseeing the operations of the business, training up team members, giving kudos to the team members, interacting with customers. I would much rather that. Let alone in the moment when we’re understaffed, where we’re asking them to plug even more holes, in that time, I’m desperate to have them on the floor. I’m desperate to have them shielding maybe some of our teenage workforce from angry customer or a dissatisfied customer, or making sure that sales are still flowing even though we are short staff. That is such a valuable thing. So, is it quantifiable? I think it’s quantifiable in a couple of different ways.

One is getting those hours back and thinking about that. But right now, if we’re saying, “Hey, we’re willing to pay someone $25 an hour and then we’re going to have them spend 10 hours a week trying to recruit,” I think those are real dollars that you’d say, well, right now you’re spending this $250 on this. If you could shift that to something else, that’s definitely a save where you’d have higher impact and higher returns.

Matt Alder: What is it that’s changed or evolved or developed in technology in the last few years that makes this kind of speed of hiring possible? What are the technology factors that go into this?

Josh: Yeah, I think we’re on this really interesting AI advancement that when you look at all the charts from AI being able to recognize handwriting, to speech, to image, to reading comprehension language. You start to say, “Well, how is AI performing relative to a human? Would it better for me just to do it myself or should I turn it over from to an automation or AI standpoint.” Just within the last three years, especially this reading in language piece has surpassed what human performance would mean. That’s a fancy way of saying it’s gotten really good and it’s easy. So, I would say, one, we’re in a really unique spot within the last few years where technology can solve some of these problems, whereas five years ago they couldn’t. So, maybe that’s one part for any of our amazing TA leaders that are listening is that it’s like, “Oh, if you haven’t gone through an RFP for technology to see what’s out there for the last three or four years get back out there,” because the new breed, the next-gen technology isn’t just like 1x or 2x better than it was. It’s like 20x better. So, it’s been a pretty great hockey stick.

The second piece is it’s not only smarter, but because it’s smarter, it’s allowed for tech companies to make the interfaces really simple and easy. We always talk about you take an Apple iPhone out of the box, nobody reads the instruction manual. You just start playing it’s intuitive and it’s easy. You log on to Instagram and you instantly know how to click the heart means like, it’s intuitive and it’s easy. What we’re starting to see is this commercial grade type of technology hit HR. What does commercial grade look like. It’s conversational, so it doesn’t feel like an app you have to download and learn. It’s something that regardless of your age, whether you’re 16 or you’re 70, you can pick up and be able to do and it’s really smart.

Why it’s so important within frontline is that it’s removing some things that were always these necessary hurdles that we all knew caused drop off in waiting. So, a couple of examples of that would be from a security standpoint, you always used to require a login or a password. It was frustrating for all of us, because you knew you were losing probably 60% of people who were interested in your job, but that process just felt necessary. Now someone can use a QR code or text a number, go through a full chat process, and you don’t even have to do that. You can now get instantly qualified versus sitting in a death zone for a while, and that’s speeding things up. So the AI advancement is then fueling how easy and simple the technology is. My favorite technology in the HR and recruiting space WinBuild almost feels invisible. You’re not learning a new piece of tech, it’s the stuff you already know.

Matt Alder: Yeah, no, absolutely. I mean, you mentioned the results that you got at McDonald’s. What other impacts and results have you been seeing from some of the other employers that you work with?

Josh: Yeah, there’s some really interesting ones. I’ll do a couple here because based on the size of an organization, obviously, some of these numbers can be great, but a couple that I really love, one was General Motors was able to bring Paradox in. General Motors is a Workday client as well as a Paradox client. So, they basically said, “Hey, we’re hiring at such volume.” For them, it was a little bit more of these professional roles, but we’re hiring at such volume that we’re having to add on contractors to help us just schedule all of these interviews in. We were able to come in and through automated scheduling, that’s really beautifully done. I mean, a couple of clicks, and you’ve got multi person interviews that are getting arranged based on being able to go into folk’s calendars and be able to book that. Just by putting in this automation for scheduling, they were able to save about $2 million within their first year, and it was actually even within their first 10 months.

I just did another webinar with a client called Southern Rock. They basically own 150 restaurants. They came to us and struggling with everything we were just talking about. They had about 72% of their restaurants were understaffed. So back to this, roughly, if they’re losing $500 a day and they’ve got 72% of their restaurants understaffed, they were able to automate their hiring process. They’re now hiring in 36 hours. Just wild. They’re now 0% understaffed. So, they’ve got it so down that they’ve got a proactive flow of candidates. Again, they’re competing again in the same labor environment that everybody else is. They’ve just found this competitive advantage. Then they’ve also been able to continue to upgrade their team. So, they continue to look for ways to chip away at their turnover.

So, their retention numbers have continued to go up because they’re feeling like they’re ahead of the game. They’re able to hire the people that they’d really want to. They’re able to give out shifts like they’d want to. So, I think that’s a really cool one. Then maybe the last one, and it’s two seconds, but I just think what the team out at Nestle is doing in our partnership is so fantastic. So, they actually leverage SAP success factors. We sit on top of them, but they deployed Paradox in about 47 different countries, and so that’s helping them run faster and smoother. But I think the piece that ties back to your previous question of just like, “Wow, how did we get here? And how did we get here so fast? And what’s helping us bridge this gap from a technology standpoint?” It’s like, “Oh my gosh, I don’t think I could have imagined five years ago a technology being able to say, ‘Hey, we can do this in 47 different countries in 17 different languages, supporting lots of different workflows that’s super highly configurable.’”

I think that’s where we all, as TA leaders, now start to benefit. The technology is simpler, there is more automation, but that frees us up to do other more important tasks. Our candidates actually like it, because it’s a warmer, more flexible experience. Then all of us geeks on the back end have more data to look at. We have more flexibility within– I love being able to design out workflows for each different person, each different profile, that I’m hiring. Now having the flexibility to do that on the back end, that’s not a heavy lift is really cool.

Matt Alder: In terms of recruiting automation, there’s some great examples there of what we’re seeing at the front line and the innovation that’s happening and what technology can do. If we take a step back and think more about talent acquisition and recruiting more broadly, how quickly are you seeing automation being adopted in general? What would your advice be to TA leaders who are looking at automation across the work that they do in terms of getting the most out of technology and the most out of their humans?

Josh: Yeah, we’re starting to see it pick up pretty fast, but I think we’re still at the early, early stage. I think we’re just past early adopters. But I think where we’re at is really interesting for anyone who, if they’re listening to your podcast, they’re already really innovative and thinking differently. What I think is so unique about this time is the tech is good and it’s really sound and it’s been implemented almost in an inverted adoption curve. So, if we’re saying, “Hey, less than 20% of companies are using this right now, there’s a lot of opportunity to be able to be a first mover in your industry or gain a competitive advantage in your industry.” But you’re doing it with technology and this is different. You’re doing it with technology that’s not in beta stage. You’re doing it with technology that, “Oh, McDonald’s is actually pressure tested. General Motors is actually pressure tested, and Nestlé is pressure tested.” So, that’s different.

So that allows for you to have confidence in the tech you’re using while also being able to gain this competitive advantage quickly, uniquely, probably within this next couple of years where you can say, “Hey, it’s a tight labor market.” There are going to be winners and losers in my market. How I’m going to make sure my business wins is being able to transform and adopt some of this automation. Where I would qualify some of this is like, “Hey, there’s a lot going on in AI.” Some of that AI fuels automation and some of it’s doing some other things. Where I’m probably most bullish and aggressive is the really simple administrative tasks that we can get off of our team’s plate. Start there really easy application processes that can be 24/7 on mobile devices where if it’s conversation all the better because no passwords or logins or drop offs.

You automatically do some quick screening based on the parameters you set, not that AI sets and automatically schedule. Just doing some of those things, you’re going to get so many more candidates because you remove all of this friction from the process. It’s a candidate experience that who loves the back and forth of interview scheduling or just waiting to hear back if you qualify, nobody likes that piece of it. By automating some of that stuff, it makes you faster and it removes chunks of hours that then you can redeploy it to other places. So, we’ve talked a lot on frontline. I mean, you’re giving managers a lot of time back to be able to spend with your customers. On the corporate side, my favorite thing that we do is this automating interview scheduling. Again, whether you’re doing panel interviews, you’ve got a global team all around the world. You need to do back-to-back interviews. Corralling schedules is one of the hardest things. With a click or a toggle or two if that all of a sudden automatically happens, that was probably seven or eight hours back to my recruiters per week. How I would use that then is like, that’s great, that’s time with my hiring managers. That’s time with the candidates, actually recruiting and making sure that these stars end up coming to our company.

I think you’re at the early stages, which gives you an opportunity to generation skip right now. I’d focus the team on automate those processes that are currently administrative before you maybe go too deep into AI decision making where depending on your market or country, there may be more hoops to jump through there.

Matt Alder: As a final question. So, as you say, we’re still very much at the early stage of automation. We’re also looking at two or three years, well, much longer, but over the next two or three years, I’m sure there’s going to be huge leaps forward in terms of what AI is doing in our industry. Where does this take us? What do you think talent acquisition looks like in five years’ time?

Josh: Yeah, I think it’s going to continue getting smarter and smarter and I think all of us in the profession, I do think this is the golden age of what we’re about to experience. My prediction would be generative AI is really a wonderful thing that’s coming on that’s going to be able to support some of the motions within recruiting. We’re already seeing today how conversational AI is being able to automate a lot more, make things a lot easier, start to take things off our plate. I think with generative AI plugged into conversational, it’s just going to raise the sea level. Everything’s going to be smarter, it’s going to be smoother. We can provide more complex prompts. I think we’ll start to have the idea of Paradox is, “What if every recruiter, what if every hiring manager had their own assistant?”

I think that assistive technology will just keep getting smarter. So, what does that mean for the profession of recruiting? Does that mean recruiter jobs are going away? No, it means that we’re going to get to be doing the thing that we love, which is recruiting top talent. We will have less of the organizational, administrative, and a lot more of the “I want Matt Alder to work for my company.” Matt doesn’t know about us right now. I need to spend time making sure he’s got all the right information. I’m going to fly out to him to take him out to dinner. I’m going to make sure that [laughs] he’s got an offer he can’t refuse. I’m going to make sure he connects. But really recruiting thoughtful, strategic recruiting to get the best people in. And I think that’s where we’re all passionate about it and we’re all passionate about having those conversations is just at scale in recruiting.

I think we’ve been forced into this corner of, “How do you build scale?” Well, you need all of these processes. You need all these things. You need to move steps in status. I think a lot of that’s going to start to go away and we’re going to be able to be really strategic. I do think the person who’s in a TA role, whose super strength is just logistical. That role, I think may be more challenging than the person who loves recruiting, loves seeking out talent as a talent advisor is someone who can really spot talent from far away. I think that person’s going to be more and more in demand.

Matt Alder: Josh, thank you very much for talking to me.

Josh: Thank you for having me, Matt.

Matt Alder: My thanks to Josh. You can subscribe to this podcast in Apple Podcasts on Spotify or via your podcasting app of choice. Please also follow the show on Instagram. You can find us by searching for “Recruiting Future.” You can search all the past episodes at recruitingfuture.com. On that site, you can also subscribe to our monthly newsletter, Recruiting Future Feast, and get the inside track about everything that’s coming up on the show. Thanks very much for listening. I’ll be back next time and I hope you’ll join me.

[The Recruiting Future Podcast theme]

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