DE&I continues, thankfully, to be an extremely high profile issue for employers. However, the needle is still not moving quickly enough, and some of the data is shocking. For example, it would still take 200 hundred years to close the race and gender pay gaps at the current rate of progress.
So what can employers do to accelerate the pace of change, and how much can individual recruiters influence diversity in hiring. This week, my guests are Trina Olson and Alfonso Wenker, co-founders of Team Dynamics. Trina and Alfonso work with some well-known organisations to improve their diversity and hiring practices. They have recently authored a book called Hiring Revolution that offers some extremely practical advice on how recruiters can inject DE&I into their organisation’s hiring.
In the interview, we discuss:
• Aligning cultural behaviour to values
• Why inequities in hiring and promotion are not a foregone conclusion
• Resume racism
• Recruiters taking individual responsibility to make change
• Notice, Name and Navigate
• RPDR
• What to do more of, what to do less of and what to stop.
• Onboarding
• How will things develop over the next two years?
Listen to this podcast in Apple Podcasts.
Interview transcription:
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Matt Alder (Intro) (1m 5s):
Hi there, this Matt Alder. Welcome to Episode 408 of The Recruiting Future Podcast. DE&I continues, thankfully, to be an extremely high-profile issue for employers. However, the needle is still not moving quickly enough, and some of the data is shocking. For example, it would still take 200 hundred years to close the race and gender pay gaps at the current rate of progress. So, what can employers do to accelerate the pace of change, and how much can individual recruiters influence diversity in hiring. This week, my guests are Trina Olson and Alfonso Wenker, co-founders of Team Dynamics.
Matt Alder (Intro) (1m 50s):
Trina and Alfonso work with some well-known organizations to improve their diversity and hiring practices. They have recently authored a book called Hiring Revolution that offers some extremely practical advice on how recruiters can inject DE&I into their organization’s hiring.
Matt Alder (2m 9s):
Hi, Trina. Hi, Alfonso, and welcome to the podcast.
Trina Olson and Alfonso Wenker (2m 13s):
Thanks for having us.
Matt Alder (2m 15s):
An absolute pleasure to have you on the show. Could you just both introduce yourselves and tell us what you do?
Trina Olson (2m 22s):
So glad to be here. My name is Trina Olson. I am the CEO and co-founder at Team Dynamics. We are a national strategy firm that works to support organizations and companies that really want to live their race and gender equity values. A couple things that are true about me that folks might not know just by listening to my voice since I know this is an audio medium. I am white. I am 41, and I am currently living in the US.
Matt Alder (2m 54s):
Fantastic.
Alfonso Wenker (2m 54s):
Well, thanks for having us, Matt. I’m Alfonso Wenker. I’m president and Trina’s co-founder at Team Dynamics. And in terms of things that are important to me or things folks should know about me, since we’re talking about race and gender. I’m a third generation Mexican American. I am a gay man. And I was born and raised Catholic. So, all of my stories sort of come through 16 years of Catholic school.
Matt Alder (3m 21s):
Tell us a little bit about your organization in terms of the sort of size and scope of what you do.
Alfonso Wenker (3m 26s):
Yeah, so we work with companies that have a footprint in the US economy or US marketplace. So, we’re working with folks in cities large and small. All around the country, companies and organizations that are really interested in reflecting on and looking at their organizational culture. So, we think of it as sort of beyond the statement, beyond the values. Our clients, our companies that have said, equity, inclusion, diversity are important. They are core to our business strategy. And we want to make sure that our daily behavior, our products, our processes, our policies align with whatever it is we’ve set is important to us.
Alfonso Wenker (4m 11s):
So, we support managers and their teams to do a lot of introspection about how cultural behavior is really getting folks closer to or farther away from whatever those espoused goals or values are relative to equity and inclusion.
Matt Alder (4m 29s):
Now, you’ve both recently written a book called Hiring Revolution. Now, I can speak from personal experience in terms of just how difficult and how much time it takes to write a book. So, I’m really interested to hear what inspired you to write the book? And what’s it about?
Trina Olson (4m 47s):
Yeah, thanks for naming that. It is a beast. And I think for all of us who read voraciously. We’re like, well, there’s books everywhere. How hard can it be? Really hard is the answer. So, we actually started writing Hiring Revolution a guide to disrupt racism and sexism and hiring in 2019, because it was the number one question we were getting from our clients, which was, “Hey, we have looked around and noticed that our bodies are more similar than different. We have a more homogenous workplace than make sense, in our industry, in our region, right? And how do we diversify our talent pool?” And Alfonso and I, and the rest of our team and staff, we’re answering this question so often, that we got irritated enough that we said, “Okay.” And then we’re gonna really have to write this all the way down.
Trina Olson (5m 41s):
And Alfonso and I come out of movement building, and community organizing, and we were really taught to show our work, right? This is not about keeping secrets. So, the reason it’s a guide is we’ve included over 20 templates that are literally precisely how we hire, and how we have a diverse team across race, across gender, religious tradition, and more. And so, the book gave us the long form opportunity to a. include all the modern workplace stats about just how bad the inequities are. Because we were starting to hear folks talk about inequities, like they, are a foregone conclusion and have to stay that way forever, right?
Trina Olson (6m 21s):
And we’re really on a mission in our lifetime to close a bunch of the hiring, promotion, and pay gaps. And then it gave us opportunity to tell the real-life story because we know being sort of esoteric and abstract isn’t helpful enough for people to literally change their behavior. And then lastly, we really talk about the responsibility of revolutionaries. Nobody coming to save us, we’re gonna have to do this. And so really trying to take an empowered approach to say this is totally in our control. The best practices have never been best for all people. And it’s time to create a new standard.
Matt Alder (7m 0s):
There’s obviously been huge focus in terms of conversations, and writing, and discussions about DE&I particularly in the last couple of years. What seems to be sort of very clear from the conversation that I have is that in some ways, things have not moved on. There are still some really pervasive problems. What particular sort of issues and problems are you addressing in the book? And what do you see as the really important things that employers need to address?
Alfonso Wenker (7m 27s):
Well, Trina, you did a lot of the research in part one, just some of the stats that for anybody who needs the case. So, we just talked about some of the stats that just jumped out for us and we think are important, if you’re beginning the conversation at, will, why would we change what we’re doing?
Trina Olson (7m 51s):
Totally. So, for any of you who are situated inside a capitalist economy, work plays such a central role in our ability to keep ourselves healthy and well, and then our families and the people we care about, healthy and well, right? So, you know, when we think about hiring, pay, and promotion, that’s central to things like cross generational wealth transfer. That’s central to our ability to purchase and own homes or other things that give us sort of equity or a safety net. And so, you know, Alfonso and I have our own decades of lived experience of experiencing what we perceived as discrimination in the workplace based on facets of our identity.
Trina Olson (8m 31s):
So, we had this lived experience, but some stats that really made me crabby. So, I had to like stop in the middle of my workday, text Alfonso, call on the phone, so I could like scream a little bit, was pay inequity when it comes to what’s going on for people of color and women is like, unreal, right? So, when we look at conversations about how long it’s going to take, for people to be paid equal for equal work? Right? So again, we’re in this like, global economic community where it’s been against the rules for a long time to pay people incorrectly. But culturally, it’s still happening.
Trina Olson (9m 13s):
So, a number that I would love for your listeners to know about is 2,224. So that’s actually a year, I plan to be dead and gone by then. So that’s approximately eight generations from now, 2,224. If we stay at the same glacial pace we currently are of closing the race and gender pay gaps. It is going to take until 2,224, for Latin X women in the US to be paid on par with white men. So, like, we’re not even close, right? And then when we look at the very beginning of a hiring process, resume racism is alive and well. And I know folks have seen the stories are sort of the Expos days and they’re really important to be out there.
Trina Olson (9m 59s):
The modern-day research is telling us that if you are a person of color in the US, and your resume is identity to mine, so I’m a white person, you are half as likely to move forward in a process if somebody claps your resume as you being a person of color. So, another way to put it is, you are twice as likely to move forward if and only if you whiten your resume, which might mean adjusting your name, taking off club or group affiliations that are actually really important to your leadership development, maybe even removing an address. So, people aren’t making assumptions based on your neighborhood or city.
Trina Olson (10m 41s):
And so again, the idea that we are pretending to be a meritocracy when we hire, and it just like, couldn’t be more biased than it currently is.
Matt Alder (10m 52s):
I think that, that sort of clearly makes the point in terms of how much work there is to do? How big the problem is? And I think that when we have these type of conversations, we tend to talk from a team strategy perspective. But obviously, there are lots of people listening who are doing day to day hiring. And, you know, maybe wondering what they can do as an individual to make a difference to make things better. What advice do you have to people who are doing that day to day recruiting? What can they be thinking and doing to help improve things?
Alfonso Wenker (11m 29s):
So there’s actually a lot all of us should be doing. I love this question. Because it’s no one else’s problem. It’s everybody’s problem. So, if you find yourself blaming your CHRO, if you find yourself blaming the entire C-suite, if you find yourself blaming your investors, if you find yourself blaming your manager, take half that energy and blame yourself, because we’re all doing it. And if you’re not driving, I just want you to close your eyes and imagine someone you think is nice. Now, I want you to imagine someone you think you would enjoy having a cup of coffee or a beer with. Now, I want you to imagine someone you think is really, really professionally put together.
Alfonso Wenker (12m 10s):
All of us, Trina and I included and we talk about race and gender, and racism and sexism all day every day. All of us imagine those things. We imagine a kind of person. If you say, “No, I didn’t imagine that kind of person.” You’re lying to yourself and you’re lying to me. We’re wired biologically for bias. We move toward and away from certain kinds of people. We find familiarity, we find comfort, we find interesting, we find dangerous, we find undesirable, we find unprofessional, certain kinds of people. So, the first thing all of us have to do we have a tool in the book, we call it investigate your instincts.
Alfonso Wenker (12m 50s):
We have to get really, really honest about the biases that we have and write them down. Not hope they go away, not just say, “I really don’t want to be biased.” Not say like at the beginning of a meeting, “I’m going to try really hard to be unbiased or not biased today.” But what we have to do is take an inventory of all the kinds of people that we don’t prefer, so that we can do, another tool that we have in the book, of what we call Notice, Name And Navigate. So, when we notice myself, and our colleagues, talking about different candidates differently, because of their race and gender. We go, I already made my list and I’m catching myself reinforcing the biases that I have.
Alfonso Wenker (13m 31s):
And so, in the notice name and navigate tool, what that allows me to do, it goes in this order. So, I notice it. I go, we’re talking about women and men differently in this conversation about which candidates to move forward. So, I think it, now I have to name it out loud. “Hey, everybody, we just had that 30-minute conversation about the candidates we want to move forward. Before we make that decision. I just want to say, I noticed when we talk about the women, we talked about how likable weak they are. When we talk about the men, we talk about their leadership presence. That feels like we’re treating men and women differently.
Alfonso Wenker (14m 12s):
That feels like the rubric is different for men and women. And it feels like a setup where women have to be likable, and men just have to be strong leaders. I’m not mad at anybody. I don’t even need to like, take this conversation anywhere else other than, I don’t think either of those things are what we said we wanted to do. So, let’s go back to the rubric, let’s go back to what we said someone needs to be ready to do, are the value that they would add to this role? And have that conversation. So that we don’t just pick like, who felt good or who seemed like a strong leader based on any of our biases. So those two tools in the book, allow us just to be responsible for our own behavior in the process, and really takes a lot of this sort of pressure and stigma out of just saying like, “Hold on a sec, this thing’s happening.
Alfonso Wenker (14m 59s):
Nobody’s in trouble because we haven’t made a decision yet.” Now, let’s go back to the values we say, “We have the goals, we say we have in the room rubric that we agreed on.”
Matt Alder (15m 14s):
I really like the title, Hiring Revolution because I think it encapsulates just where we are right now. And taking this back to that sort of team company strategic level, what kind of planning does a talent acquisition team need to do to, you know, to start this Hiring Revolution journey?
Trina Olson (15m 36s):
Yeah, it’s a great question. So, the whole middle of the book, the second part is about going moment to moment through the tasks a talent acquisition and hiring team needs to engage them, right? So, everybody needs to define what the job is going to be, everybody needs to recruit, everybody needs to interview, you need to select, right? So, we’ve been saying for a long time, it’s not that the tasks are radically different, it’s how we approach the task. And so, part of what I think talent acquisition can do at the very front end of a conversation is sometimes they are handed goals. And the goals don’t always have like a clear why attached to them.
Trina Olson (16m 17s):
Right? So, if somebody is saying to somebody in talent acquisition, “I would like a really diverse candidate pool.” What I invite and what the book invites talent acquisition folks to say is, “Oh, my gosh, me too. I’m so glad we’re on the same page.” Diverse, in what way? Right? So, depending on the role, the context of the team who we do and don’t already have, who’s precisely are we looking for? Is this about noticing that we’re really only in two generations on this team, and there’s benefit of expanding into three or four. It’s noticing that everybody in our communications department is Christian.
Trina Olson (16m 60s):
So, we are messing up some conversations about religion and holidays, and other things that other teammates might need, right? So, we want to have goals that are steeped in our why. And so, the book talks about, what are the assets you imagine, and somebody who is different than who’s already on the team? And then as you think about your filter or your process, it is your job to notice that every phase is anything about your filter. So, qualifications, right? Who gets moved on and who doesn’t? Does anything happen in your filter, where a whole kind of person doesn’t make it through? Right? All of a sudden, nobody under the age of 30?
Trina Olson (17m 41s):
Nobody who is currently the parent of a young child, or nobody who is dark skinned. Right? So just play the tape through to the end there. And so, I think we have that responsibility to be checking at each one of the tasks that may seem just really benign, or like a thing we need to do. We have to check the tasks, for sure we had an intent, but what is the impact? And if the impact isn’t what we want, it’s our job to shift or pivot.
Alfonso Wenker (18m 9s):
So, I’ll add, Trina just walked through a bunch of questions that we need to answer at the outset of our planning. And the good news is the answer to all of our questions are there’s a tool in the book and also on the book website. We use an acronym RPDR. Recognize Post Diversity Relationships. So, Trina asked a bunch of questions about recognizing bias, about what needs to go on the posting, about your diversity goals, and about your relational goals and the process. So, RPDR was sort of an accident. The story is, if folks know of the show RuPaul’s Drag Race, it’s now in many, many different countries gets tweeted about every Friday when the show airs in different countries #RPDR.
Alfonso Wenker (18m 52s):
And then whatever season we’re on. So, I was like, “Okay, we got to do something around relationships, we have to do something around recognizing bias in the planning phase, we have to do something about, what’s the plan for posting? We have to do something about the plan for diversity. That’s RP, D, another R. So that’s how we remember it. And that’s sort of how all those questions that Trina posed, are organized so that you can go back like she was saying, and say, “Well, what were the answers to all those questions?” You’ve done that in a big sort of pile of answers. Before anything gets put up online.
Matt Alder (19m 30s):
So moving on to some of the specific activities that people do, what is it that you’re suggesting people do more of, do less of, and try in terms of revolutionizing the way that they do their hiring?
Trina Olson (19m 45s):
So, one thing that we for sure want people to do more of in the hiring is give candidates the opportunity to show you what they’re capable of. Way too much of modern-day hiring is about putting on a performance and describing to you what I am good at. We are inviting folks to get really creative across industry and department and role, to say how could you imagine a meaningful way. So not a made-up way, that’s sort of an aberration and not super useful, but a meaningful way. So that could look anything like in an operations or finance department, part of the application is showing you a profit and loss statement. And I’m needing you to tell me what you see in that.
Trina Olson (20m 30s):
So, your analysis, your approach, as well as maybe there are two errors that I want you to catch, right? If it is about communications, or fundraising, or strategy. How can you create meaningful opportunities for people to show? The other thing that we want people to do way more of is substantive, non-redundant questions? So, way too much of hiring processes currently are inefficient, because we’re just asking people the same thing like 17 ways. And it’s making us look like we’re not paying attention, because you’re clearly not moving the information forward if we have to start from scratch every time. So, every time we’re interacting with a candidate and their time is valuable, it’s really likely they have another job and are searching for more than just your place of work.
Trina Olson (21m 21s):
How can we use that time really well? So more substantive questions that are actually going to give us answers that help us compare and contrast qualified adults.
Alfonso Wenker (21m 36s):
So my two are not even less of their stops. So, first, don’t do less of them fully stop them. One is stop cover letters. So, cover letters just aren’t telling us anything. The number of times I read a cover letter, and I’m like, “Well, I was excited when I heard about this person and now I’m confused.” Or now this reads like not the phone call I had or obviously this comes from a template, right?” The number of times that I have asked other people to help me write, I’ve worked from a template, I’ve had people reorganize my cover letter. The cover letter is not telling me hardly anything about the ways in which this person is ready to do the job I need them to do.
Alfonso Wenker (22m 16s):
If it’s a writing job, ask for a writing sample that’s about the kind of writing the person would be doing and the writing job. So, stopping cover letters is one of our big suggestions in the book. What we suggest is ask questions to understand what you need to understand. So, a short form, a survey. Allow people to in X number of paragraphs, answer a set of questions, because the cover letter format has been so abused, that it’s not telling us anything. The other thing is stop resumes. Part of what we know happens is we do a skim of a resume and we’re looking for certain words, but not everybody knows that we’re looking for certain words.
Alfonso Wenker (22m 59s):
So rather than just say, I hope when I read this resume, I’m going to find the kinds of titles or the kinds of activities or the kinds of accomplishments. I might say, “Tell me about like I was just writing the job the other day for a sales position. Tell me about the times that you’ve doubled, a sales goal in the hundreds of 1000s or millions of dollars.” So, do you have a list of times you did that? Or places that you did that? I don’t know. If you’re something you know, titles are confusing – account executive, business development, they might not say what I need to see. So, get rid of resumes and just ask people, “Could you give me a list of I need to know this?” Because I also don’t need to know that 20 years ago, they were an intern at their like, uncle’s whatever, right?
Alfonso Wenker (23m 41s):
So, we want to drop resumes, we want to drop cover letters, and we just want to ask candidates to provide us the information that we’re looking for. Part of why we do that is to eliminate any secret rubric or any secret hoop to jump through where the candidate maybe didn’t even know I was looking for certain words and phrases. So rather than saying, “Well, I wonder if these resumes are going to have those secret words and phrases.” I say, “Tell me when you’ve done this, how many times have you done it? How many places have you done it? For how long have you done it?” And it could be easy to say. “Didn’t he just describe a resume?” I didn’t because there’s so much fluff, and so much formatting, and so much gesturing, and posturing in a resume that I lose sight of the information that I actually need.
Alfonso Wenker (24m 33s):
So cool. If you have a resume and you can answer my question in my copy and pasting sections of it. Go for it. But as recruiters, as hiring managers, there’s stuff we need to know and there’s more of a story than the old school template of resumes and cover letters just can tell us.
Matt Alder (24m 53s):
So we’ve been focusing our conversation very much on hiring, but hiring is only actually a small part of the overall picture. When it comes to things like onboarding and organizational culture, obviously, they have a huge impact as well. Give us your thoughts on that.
Trina Olson (25m 11s):
Absolutely. This conversation on Like, when is an organization even ready to diversify? And as we think about hiring and an on road to retention and having a meaningful workforce, we talked in the book about The Responsibility of Revolutionaries. And so, what it is like to do our day to day work, before the bodies we’re imagining will someday work here, actually start to work here, right. And so, this conversation about a real strong preference for masculinity and masculine coded behaviors, and a real strong preference for whiteness, and white coded behaviors is threaded throughout our culture, right? So, the idea of what is or isn’t on time, the idea of what is or isn’t professional dress?
Trina Olson (25m 57s):
And we want to be super clear, this is not about lowering the bar. It’s about stopping the conflation between racist and sexist norms, and just calling those “professional.” Right? So, we know across standards, and we know from the COVID-19 global pandemic. And more, there are a ton of different ways to show up to work and do your job really well. So, gone are the days of conflating like proximity, or being dry cleaned with being more smart. Right? And so as we have conversations with folks about their organizational culture, we talk about the patterns of both thinking and behavior that have led to the kind of rigidity that only allows certain kinds of people to be successful.
Trina Olson (26m 42s):
So, in the US, just like research about which kids in nursery school are going to get in trouble more? The same is true in the workforce, which adults are more likely to be sort of called into the office and told they’re doing something wrong? It’s absolutely, you know, more often people of color than white folks. So, the conversation about culture isn’t just about our sort of politics and our commitment. It is, how am I willing to be changed and be different and how I work? When a colleague comes to me and says, “I need something different than how you work to be successful.” So where are we flexible? And where are we rigid? And then where are we holding really tightly and really lightly to ways of thinking and behavior that is short sighted, when it comes to the kind of innovation collaboration we need in order to achieve sort of modern-day knowledge, work goals.
Matt Alder (27m 36s):
The last few years has shown us that it’s impossible to predict the future. But I’m interested to get your thoughts on, how you think everything’s gonna develop over the next sort of year or two years? So, if we’re having this conversation, again, in 18 months, two years’ time, what do you hope we’d be talking about?
Alfonso Wenker (28m 5s):
So, for me, there’s two things. One is workplaces, so folks that are hiring. We can continue to complain about who isn’t, isn’t available, who isn’t, isn’t applying, who isn’t, isn’t performing to our expectations. Or we can get honest that employer worker relationships are reciprocal, and that we’re entering a moment of more balance, where worker expectations have changed. So, workers aren’t just going to settle for what was? So, employers, we can dig our heels in and say, “People just need to understand.” Or we could say, “We’ve got to wholesale, change our stance in relationship to workers.” And say, “this is actually a relationship where we’re choosing each other, and that people can’t just think they’re just so blessed and lucky to have been hired by us.” But that we have to change how we operate, because who wants to work?
Alfonso Wenker (29m 3s):
Once there’s a ton of people that want to work, they don’t want to work in subpar conditions for an amount of money, that means they can’t pay rent, and to a point where they’re impacting negatively their physical and mental health, right? So, we have to change. So, I hope that workplaces, and hiring managers, and recruiters are having a conversation that acknowledges this change, and says, “This is a two way and reciprocal relationship.”
Matt Alder (29m 34s):
And Trina, what about you?
Trina Olson (29m 37s):
Yeah, so I really hope that we’re headed towards a place where workers are allowed to be re-embodied. So, for far too long, we’ve been treating workers as the we’re not part of a body, right. It’s the one and a half inches in our brain and everything else is an irritant. So, treating people like their health is an irritant, their family is an irritant, their other commitments are an irritant, right? So, as we, you know, have been forced, really in the last two years to deal with the reality of human bodies. And the ecosystems that are threaded and web together and sort of interconnected caretaking.
Trina Olson (30m 19s):
I think we really have an opportunity to have a 180-degree paradigm shift to say, “Okay, how is it helpful? That right, especially in the age of AI, if what is the human specialty that we’re bringing?” And it doesn’t just mean sort of like fluff and cuteness, but it is, I have a heart, I have a body, I have a mind. All three are centers of wisdom. So how can we get back into the world of being ready or, and much more prepared to actually support real life human beings?
Matt Alder (30m 52s):
So final question, where can people find you? And where can they find the book?
Alfonso Wenker (30m 57s):
Yeah, so for the book, you can head to hiringrevolutionbook.com. So, you can order hard copies there. There are bulk order discounts. So, if you’re wanting to order Hiring Revolution for your whole Talent Team, there’s a discount for that. It’s also available on Amazon, on Kindle and audible. So, if you’re more of a digital, book consuming person, and then for all of our other work, a bunch of our resources, our podcasts and different worksheets for other sort of org culture stuff, you can head to Team Dynamics mn.com, and we’re on Twitter at Team Dynamics LLC.
Trina Olson (31m 32s):
And our podcast is called Behave. It’s entirely about workplace behavior. And Alexa on our team, Alfonso is going to be really proud of me if I actually share my social media handles this time.
Alfonso Wenker (31m 45s):
Do it.
Trina Olson (31m 51s):
Okay, great. So, on Twitter and Instagram, trina_c_olsen.
Matt Alder (31m 51s):
Trina and Alfonso, thank you very much for joining me. My thanks to Trina and Alfonso. You can subscribe to this podcast in Apple podcasts, on Spotify or via your podcasting app of choice. Please also follow the show on Instagram. You can find us by searching for Recruiting Future. You can search all the past episodes at recruitingfuture.com. On that site, you can also subscribe to the mailing list to get the inside track about everything that’s coming up on the show. Thanks very much for listening. I’ll be back next time and I hope you’ll join me. Recruiting Future: This is my show.
