I’ve been involved in recruitment marketing and employer brand for a couple of decades now. I’ve consistently felt that although there is some outstanding work in this space, the overall quality of output is not as good as it could be. So how can we fix this and who can we learn from to make things better?
My guest this week is Nick Thompson, Global Talent Marketing Team Manager at IBM. Nick and the teams that he has worked with have done some brilliant work in recruitment marketing and employer branding in the last few years and have developed ways of working that everyone can learn from
In the interview, we discuss:
▪ How can talent acquisition step up the quality of recruitment marketing and employer branding
▪ Judging recruitment marketing against other types of marketing.
▪ Effective methodologies and processes
▪ Failing fast and iterating
▪ Understanding your audience
▪ Giving employees a voice
▪ The role of technology
▪ Thoughts and predictions for the future
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Transcript:
Matt Alder [00:00:00]:
Support for this podcast is provided by Phenom, the global leader in talent experience management. A single platform solution that’s built on artificial intelligence, Phenom delivers personalization, automation and accuracy throughout the entire talent life cycle. As a result, employers improve their talent acquisition and talent management efforts by helping candidates and employees find the right job. Recruiters identify and engage the right talent and management, optimize HR strategy, process and spend. Visit phenom.com and phenom is spelt P H E N O M to learn how you can transform the talent experience.
Matt Alder [00:01:06]:
This is Matt Alder. Welcome to episode 324 of the Recruiting Future podcast. I’ve been involved in recruitment, marketing and employer branding for a couple of decades now and I’ve consistently felt that although there is some outstanding work in this space, the overall quality of output is not as good as it could be. So how can we fix this and who can we learn from to make things better? My guest this week is Nick Thompson, Global Talent Marketing Team Manager at IBM. Nick and the teams that he’s worked with have done some brilliant work in recruitment, marketing and employer branding in the last few years and have developed ways of working that everyone can learn from.
Matt Alder [00:01:57]:
Hi Nick and welcome to the podcast.
Nick Thompson [00:01:59]:
Hey Matt, thanks for having me.
Matt Alder [00:02:01]:
An absolute pleasure to have you on the show. Could you just introduce yourself and tell everyone what you do?
Nick Thompson [00:02:06]:
Yeah, of course. So I’m Nick Thompson. I am the Global center of Excellence employer Brand Talent Marketing lead for IBM.
Matt Alder [00:02:17]:
Fantastic stuff. And maybe also just tell us a little bit about your backstory and how you got to do the job that you do now.
Nick Thompson [00:02:24]:
Yeah, of course. So obviously when I was growing up as a little boy, when all my friends wanted to be astronauts and chairman and stuff like this, I wanted to be a recruiter. And of course not. I. I stumbled into recruitment as did most people, and as did most people never quite got out of it. I have worked agency side, I’ve worked in the RPO space, I’ve worked in house. I’ve worked for some pretty cool companies from Vodafone and, and now most recently at IBM. And I’ve played in the the kind of branding talent marketing attraction. It goes by many different names but it’s ultimately marketing space now for six, seven, maybe eight years trying to remember what’s what. But yeah, had some really good fun and I love it.
Matt Alder [00:03:24]:
We’ve known each Other for a while. And we’re kind of forever chatting about employer brand and marketing, whether that’s in a bar or whether we’re judging awards on a panel, whatever that might be. And I know that you’ve got some very strong views on it. What can we do to really sort of step up the quality of recruitment, marketing and employer branding that’s out there?
Nick Thompson [00:03:45]:
Yeah, I say, I think this is probably the first time without a few beers that we’ve had this conversation. So could be a very different slant on previous ones. But for me, I think it’s important to note we’re doing some good things as an industry. There’s definitely been a big step up and big changes, but I think if we compare ourselves, if we take ourselves out of our TA bubble, our recruitment bubble, we are a long, long way from mainstream marketing and, and how things are happening out there. I think gone are the days of we just used to have to have the best adverts on a job board and we were playing in our safe sand pit, if we want to call it that. Everyone that came there was looking for exactly what it was we had on offer and we just had to have the best advert, whether that meant the most buzzwords, the biggest banners. I think when people really started pushing the boat out was when videos started to go in and looking back at some of my first examples, they were horrific, but they were videos and they were early, so it was all good. But I think for me the biggest bit is we really do need to kind of pop that TA bubble and kind of get out of that. If we think about our candidates behaviors now and if we think about the smartphone in their hands, they don’t have in most cases apps or separate notifications for recruitment related activities. I’m looking at mine now and I’m seeing Facebook, Twitter, Instagram. I’ve got YouTube notifications, I’ve got emails, I’ve got WhatsApp messages and I don’t open any of those and I don’t set a different standard depending on what they are. So I wouldn’t look in my emails and go, oh, I love this one from Amazon. Actually, I really need to go and order that for Christmas or for whatever it might be. And then I look at the next recruitment one and go, it’s got a really rubbish header. It doesn’t really make sense. There’s typos and spelling mistakes and I think we’ve got to realise that we’ve got to realise that we don’t have our safe job board space. Anymore. We are playing with the big boys and girls and it’s time to step up and learn from them and compete with them.
Matt Alder [00:06:30]:
Unsurprisingly, I completely agree. I completely agree with you. I think that we do tend to look at recruitment, marketing and employer branding in its own bubble, but that bubble doesn’t exist outside the industry in terms of the audience that are consuming it or ignoring it, as the case may be. I think one of the issues is that in a lot of cases we still follow the same sort of processes and methodologies for recruitment, marketing and employer branding that we did 20 years ago when it was all about all about newspapers. And I know that you’ve always been on the cutting edge of change here with the work that you’ve done and the companies that you’ve worked for, for what sort of processes and methodologies do you advocate? What could people, how could people think differently about doing this in order to have better outcomes?
Nick Thompson [00:07:20]:
No, definitely. And thank you for the kind words, Matt. Always appreciate it. There’s a whole load of different ways of working and I am really sorry. I’m going to be one of these guys that talks about agile and I’m not going to talk about it anymore. From this point onwards I’m going to talk about the bits within it that I, for me, I absolutely love, love, love failing fast. I remember, I don’t know who it is, but there were two quotes that I was told is that nothing exciting ever happened in your comfort zone and if you’re not failing you’re not doing anything differently. And they’re the two things that I’ve got them as my screensaver or my backdrop on my Mac and I’ve got them around where I work because for me I think it’s really good to fail and it’s really good to fail fast. You’ve just got to have a healthy relationship with failure. You can’t see it as failure and the world is ending and it’s game over. You’ve got to see it as okay, right, time to regroup and time to reiterate. I think the way we work as a team and the way I’ve worked for quite a while is I work on kind of effort versus reward points. And what I’ve identified is my team’s velocity is let’s say 50 points of effort over a two week sprint and what we do is we work on a backlog. Items go in, we stack them with an efforts points versus the reward points and the sprint planning is all about how many effort points can we get from our fifth how many reward points can we get from our 50 effort points? And clearly we want to try and get as many reward points as we can. Having that velocity speed is really, really useful. And this isn’t a made up 50. You run four, five, six sprints of a week, two weeks, a month, whatever period it is that you want to run at. I love a two week sprint and use those points, use the average across that period of time to make sure you’re creating that work going forward. The other bits for me, and it goes along with the failing fast is iterate, iterate, iterate and iterate. Every single thing that I do is a minimal viable product a the basis to see whether it was worth doing. Don’t go spending a year on a piece of work that when you launch it, you find out no one cares in the nicest possible way. And I’ve done this the hard way. I spent months working on really cool things earlier in my career or what I thought were really cool things to find out. Our candidates just didn’t care. They didn’t look at it, they didn’t click on it, they didn’t even know it existed as it seemed at the time. So use the iteration model where launch something quick, not offensive, but dirty and use the data to say whether people are looking at it, whether they’re touching it, what it is, where they want to go from. Created this on all of the websites that we’ve launched from all of branding campaigns that I’ve done previously has all been around get something out in the market a B test it, see whether anyone looks at it. If they are looking at it, which bits are they looking at, what was not there that they were looking at, how long did they spend and start building upon this? Careers websites, you’ve probably noticed the trend over the projects I’ve done the Vodafone project and now the IBM. We have a text search bar for verbatim what it is our candidates are looking for and what they’re typing in. And we use that data every single month to create the next set of content that we’re working to that we need to create, that we need to build out. How do we switch the pages around to put that content first and how do we show it up in the best way for them? How do we make it easier for them to get there? And this isn’t me and my team saying this is what we want a candidate to know, this is what we want them to see, this is what we want to show it’s around what is it they are looking for and what is it they want to do? A couple other bits for me we talk about kind of how do we stand out in the marketing world rather than the ta bubble. I love doing the scroll test and the scroll test is literally pick your phone up and scroll through. What is it that you stop and look at? Obviously preparing for our chat today, I did a little bit of research and scared myself. In the UK we scroll an average of 5 miles per year on our mobiles, on social media.
Matt Alder [00:12:51]:
No way.
Nick Thompson [00:12:52]:
Yep. That scared the living daylights out of me. Because when you think we are creating for social something that is 2cm, so how on earth do we make sure that our two centimetres stack out in that five miles of content that people are consuming? And it’s really simple if you don’t stop and look at it, do it again, find something that does, don’t click bait it, but give people something that they want to look at. Last two bits for me, I promise on these. I love these different methodologies, co creation. I don’t believe in ivory tower projects. I don’t believe of me with a mega brain, a mega mind that knows everything. I know what I like, I know who I am, but I’m not 99.9% of the people I’m trying to attract. So work with them, understand them. Our jobs are the journalists, I suppose to understand who they are, what it is they want, how they want to consume it and then to start giving it to them, monitoring it, reviewing the data and then building upon it. And the last one, I’ve spoken about this a number of times in my career is ask for forgiveness. I do find permission can often block innovation. I get you have to be risk adverse. I totally understand that. Yes, I have made mistakes that I regret and I wouldn’t do again. But in the digital world now those mistakes are containable. You don’t have to show them up to everyone in the world. You can show them to the relevant audience and you can iterate upon it and you can build on it. So for me, forgiveness is a, is a big, big piece of our talent, marketing and branding space.
Matt Alder [00:14:55]:
So before you blew my mind with that five mile stat, which is, which is amazing, right at the beginning of the answer, you touched on something which I is really interesting. So the word agile gets kicked around in our industry as a buzzword and as a buzzword that people are tired of hearing about, but I think that’s because most people just use it. Replace the word fast with agile and don’t actually get into what agile methodology means. And I think the really interesting thing about listening to you there is exactly that you’re talking through the methodology and how it can be applied and the results that you get and the way that you work. For a lot of people, it’s probably the first time that they’re hearing the nuts and bolts of it. So could you sort of bring it to life for us by talking about some of the work that you’ve done that you’re, that you’re really proud of?
Nick Thompson [00:15:42]:
Yeah, of course. And agile is a whole minefield that people will end up kind of going in and go, it’s me or it’s not. It’s kind of the marmite. I think of ways of working, but I also think you don’t have to do everything. It isn’t a light switch, it isn’t all on or all off. You can use the different practices and ways which really help. But I’ve worked this way for a number of years now and I completely attribute some of the things that I’m most proud of because of this way of working. And I know it’s allowed me to do some really cool things and to win awards as well. It’s been a really big thing for me and it really helps. But I think one of the biggest ones for me is I mentioned about websites and I love websites. I’ve worked on them for a number of years and previous website, we pretty much did the clean sweep of every award we entered. We won for best website. And that for me, the website doesn’t stop when somebody clicks apply. That includes the application process. So controversially, your ATS is still part of your web experience. So don’t have the best shop window, the amazing sales staff, the best champagne on arrival, and then tell people you only accept coins for payment is what I feel most of the websites kind of feel like at the moment. But for me, winning the awards has been really, really big. I’ve done some really cool work for some really cool. And I’ve. I’ve done some bold work. I’ve. I’ve worked with some amazing partners from, from agencies and we’ve really pushed the boundaries and, and broken barriers as well. Giving our people a voice and not a scripted voice is, Is a way of working for me. And it’s something that I will forever do because I don’t believe I picture the kind of the newsroom article almost or the newsroom interview and there’s never just a single microphone in front of the person that’s giving that press story. There’s always a series of microphones and our job as employer, branding, recruitment, marketing, however we call it, is to make sure we have multiple microphones and that means using our people. So give people a voice and give them a platform. Proudest bit without doubt is being asked to be the chair of the RAD Awards this year. I was privileged enough to judge it a few years ago. I was extremely lucky enough to win a number of awards from work that I’ve done previously. So when I was invited to be the first in house chair, it was a big, it was a real proud moment for me and I’m hoping this is a big sign to all of the in house people and all of my, my peers and colleagues and friends that this is, this is our time to shine. This is hopefully we’re being seen as a competitor and as an equal to a lot of the agencies out there. So I’m really hoping we can really push that forward as an industry. And I see it as if in house steps up, agency steps up, agency steps up, in house steps up and actually we keep this cycle of we’re never settling, we’re never resting, we’re all doing it together to help drive us forward. But yeah, really proud. Going to be a really challenging year because clearly 2020 went to plan for absolutely nobody this year. So excited and nervous at the same time to see some of the entries that come through and I cannot wait to celebrate the wins that our industry and our world has here.
Matt Alder [00:20:10]:
I’m sure there’s some very interesting work that’s come out of 2020. So changing the subject slightly, we’re talking about recruitment, marketing, employer branding. What role does technology play in this from your perspective?
Nick Thompson [00:20:25]:
So I’m a tech geek, so I apologize on that part. First, Matt, I absolutely love HR tech and tech as a whole. The biggest bit for me is my view and relationship with technology is that it’s an enabler, it isn’t a solution on its own. And I found that out really quickly when I early in my career just bought the latest and greatest and shiniest technology pieces and I put it in and it still didn’t solve what it was I was trying to do. The problem was still there. So for me it’s really about trying to identify the root cause, like dig into what is it that isn’t working, what is it that needs to be solved and see whether it’s a technology piece that needs to come in to solve it or see whether there’s a cultural, a behavioral or something else at play. I do think technology helps you scale things, it can help you do things quicker, but it can also improve how you do things as well. So technology for me isn’t the big baddie that I may have pointed out to be. I suppose I’ve seen and I’ve experienced buying the latest and greatest shiny piece of tech and it didn’t solve the problems because I didn’t understand where they were. I mentioned earlier about kind of outside of TA and looking at marketing tech that’s out there and consumer tech and understanding, how could we use some of that for what we do? How do we have. I think this is the big geek out we had last time. The things like the neurocognitive behaviors behind online dating. And how can some of those principles coming to our recruitment websites, how can we understand different drivers and triggers that sit within us as people that trigger different emotions or reactions and the research that takes place outside of ta. I wouldn’t even want to understand how many zeros go behind it and how many dollars and pounds and euros are spent on it because it’s millions if not billions. And I think there’s some really cool stuff out there that if we switch things a little, we could probably use some of my favorite at the moment. I love the work that the team at Altru are doing. We use it for our user generated content. Clearly they’re doing something right with the ISIMS recently acquiring them. So clearly someone else approves of that. I think Metaview are doing some really cool things around interview bias. And one of my all time faves is is the team at Meet and Engage. I love how the tech is created to solve a problem and it isn’t just a here’s a bit of sparkle that that makes things look better. It’s really there to fundamentally change how things work and how we operate.
Matt Alder [00:24:07]:
I’d actually forgotten that we’d had that conversation, but I think if anything sums up recruitment, marketing and branding geekery, it’s talking about neurocognitive learnings from online dating while in a bar in Venice drinking.
Nick Thompson [00:24:22]:
I know. And then having to explain to my wife afterwards why I’ve been on so many dating websites and I’m very happy and I’m doing this for work. It was a very interesting conversation.
Matt Alder [00:24:33]:
So I could, I could talk to you all day. We don’t have all day. So one final question. Incredibly difficult to predict what the future is going to be like at the moment. It’s difficult to predict what this afternoon is going to be like, what are your thoughts for the next 12 to 18 months? What do you think is going to happen? What would you like to see happen?
Nick Thompson [00:24:50]:
What do I think will happen is I, I, I really, really hope that people have realized those 12 to 18 month plans that they set out at the start of 2020 probably isn’t the best way to do things. Now I’m not an expert or specialist when it comes to viruses and I don’t pretend to be so at all. But I think if anything it’s taught us, yes, we need to understand what it is we need to get to or the state we need to be in. But I don’t think for me 2020 has taught me don’t plan in June, I’m doing this in July, I’m doing that in August, I’m doing that because they kind of went out the window this year. So I’m hoping that we do get a lot more nimble and flexible and iterative in our approach. My biggest hope really is around the kind of talent marketing branding bubble kind of popping and I really want to see us playing in the marketing space. I want us to stop being big fish in a small pond and let’s just all get into the, the big pond and, and play with the big boys and girls. I think it’s there that we really can take our industry and our offering and our promises to our, our candidates and potential candidates forwards 100%. The links with marketing have to get stronger. We, I think every single time I speak to anybody, there’s always the question of where should employer brand sit? Should it be marketing? Should it be ta, should it be hr? For me the simple answer is absolutely everywhere. It isn’t a single team’s work. It is a complete organizational effort and everybody needs to come on that journey. And the last part for me, I really hope that people start realizing the power of our employee voices and our user generated content and stories. I really do feel that the strength and power of brand to consumer messages, especially in our branding space is going to start dying. I hope and actually that it will be our people to people content that really starts picking up and the proof of that, I mean how many more years of the Edelman reports telling us people don’t trust brand content do we need before we start acting upon it? So for me it’s your greatest opportunity. I get budgets aren’t what they used to be. People are struggling on these. It doesn’t cost anything to ask an employee why do they do what they do at your company? Rather than anywhere else. And that’s often the most powerful message that you could ask and then share when you get the answer.
Matt Alder [00:28:15]:
Nick, thank you very much for talking to me.
Nick Thompson [00:28:17]:
Thank you, Matt.
Matt Alder [00:28:19]:
My thanks to Nick Thompson. You can subscribe to this podcast in Apple Podcasts on Spotify or via your podcasting app of choice. Please also follow the show on Instagram. You can find us by searching for Recruiting Future. You can search through all the past episodes@recruitingfuture.com on that site. You can also subscribe to the mailing list to get the inside track about everything that’s coming up on the show. Thanks very much for listening. I’ll be back next time and I hope you’ll join me.
