The situation we are all living through is undoubtedly testing everyone’s motivation and resilience in many different ways. Planning for an uncertain future is tough, but there are mental models that can help.
My guest this week is Sue Stockdale. As well as being an inspirational speaker and an executive coach Sue is a former polar explorer and athlete. She has some great advice to share on motivation, inspiration and building mental resilience.
In the interview, we discuss:
• Developing mental resilience in extreme conditions
• Diminishing interferences
• Planning for an unexpected future
• The importance of the known
• What holds people back
• Inspiration from an astronaut
• Leading versus managing
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Transcript:
Matt Alder [00:00:00]:
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Matt Alder [00:01:23]:
Hi everyone, this is Matt Alder. Welcome to episode 274 of the Recruiting Future podcast. The situation we’re all living through is undoubtedly testing everyone’s motivation and resilience in many different ways. Planning for an uncertain future is tough, but there are mental models that can help. My guest this week is Sue Stockdale. As well as being an inspirational speaker and an executive coach, sue is a former polar explorer and athlete. She has some great advice to share on motivation, inspiration, and building mental resilience. Hi sue and welcome to the podcast.
Sue Stockdale [00:02:10]:
Welcome, Matt. I’m pleased to be here.
Matt Alder [00:02:12]:
An absolute pleasure to have you on the show. Could you just introduce yourself and tell everyone what you do?
Sue Stockdale [00:02:17]:
Yes, Matt, I’m Sue Stockdale and I’m in the business of providing inspiration. I do that through coaching through leadership programs, podcasts, books, articles, and work with leaders worldwide really to help them to be more effective.
Matt Alder [00:02:32]:
Fantastic stuff. Now you have the most amazing backstory and you’ve done some incredible things. Could you tell us a bit more about your story and how you got to where you’ve got to today?
Sue Stockdale [00:02:43]:
Well, it started in a corporate environment. I worked in a large energy company for 12 years and the majority of that time was in corporate training and development. So I got a great sense about management and leadership and what people need to have to be effective in those situations. And then I changed completely and actually worked in the United nations in a war zone for a year doing quality improvement. Would you believe what that taught me was really about taking risks? Because not everyone necessarily wants to jump ship from a corporate lifestyle. To work in a war zone on a one year contract. And having taken that risk and survived, I learned a lot about what that means in terms of building confidence and stepping into the unknown. So that was quite important in my career journey, if you like. And then from there I spotted an opportunity to go on an expedition to the Magnetic North Pole. Now that’s not something that you see every day in the newspaper, but I did spot this advert. And having successfully one or gained one of the places on the expedition, I think There were over 500 applicants originally when we went through a whole series of challenging tests to be selected. I eventually became the first British woman to ski to the Magnetic North Pole. Something that I never imagined was possible months or years before that. And then from there, Matt, I didn’t want that experience. Something that I had never imagined was possible to be just photographs in an album. I wanted to use that experience because I thought, well, if I can do something like that, what can other people do with their lives? What amazing North Pole equivalents can they achieve? So I took those two experiences of how to help people to become better managers and leaders, if you like. That was the tools. And then I now had the inspirational story to share with people. And combining those two things, I then set up in business as initially as a motivational speaker and went traveled all around the world as you might imagine, inspiring audiences to step out their comfort zone and achieve amazing things. But I quickly realized that inspiration is really a very one hit wonder. It’s a very quick thing and if you don’t have something that people can practically do immediately to take action, it dissipates into the wind, that inspiration. So that’s then when I began to then introduce one to one coaching leadership development programs with those people who were inspired but didn’t quite know what to do next. And that is really how my career has evolved over time. I then also realized that not everybody necessarily is visual preference of listening or watching a speaker. So people began to ask me, haven’t you got a book? Can you write down your experiences? So I got into the written form of communication and then more laterally have gone into podcasting, which is a fantastic medium as you know. So that’s really in a nutshell, my.
Matt Alder [00:05:40]:
Story, lots of things I want to talk to you about. But can I just ask because I’m really fascinated by this about the practicalities of skiing to the North Pole. What’s it like, how difficult is it and how did you do it?
Sue Stockdale [00:05:54]:
It’s pretty tough. You’re going into A place that basically wants you dead. So it’s all about survival. And that’s certainly something I think of late, that in the corporate world, we’re very much familiar with. So that really means it’s about testing both your physical and your mental capabilities. You don’t have to be the best skier to get to the North Pole. In fact, I’d never done any cross country skiing prior to that expedition. I learned on the job. But what I had learned prior to the expedition was about resilience and about the mental game it takes to achieve that success. Because imagine you’re skiing for 10, 12 hours a day with nothing to look at or focus on. All around you is white. There’s generally no sound apart from the swishing of other people’s skis or the wind that you can hear blowing past you. So it really takes a lot of mental resilience to keep going. It would be far too easy to give up. And therefore it’s all about the mental game and what’s going on in your head.
Matt Alder [00:06:57]:
I mean, that’s really interesting because with the coaching that you’ve done, you must have seen a lot of that in a business context. How do you develop that resilience, particularly in situations that look like they have no immediate end and people don’t have a sense of where they’re at or where they’re going? How do you help people develop that mental ability?
Sue Stockdale [00:07:19]:
Well, maybe just to give context, Matt, I love John Whitmore’s quote from his Coaching for Performance book, which is, performance equals potential minus interference. And what we’re really talking about here is helping people to diminish and actually become aware of that interference that’s going on in their head. And it might be also practical interferences like lack of money or the external situation. But once you become aware of those interferences in your head, then you’ve got a choice to do something about them. So I think that developing resilience really starts from the point of taking a moment to stop and think. What’s actually going through my head at this given moment? Am I feeling fear? And that’s what the kind of focus is. What am I actually fearful of? And it’s often fearful of the unknown, the uncertainty ahead. And therefore, what for me, that comes down to is thinking about what you can actually control. In the Arctic. You can’t control the weather. You can’t control if a polar bear is going to pop out behind an iceberg. You can’t control the speed of skiing of other people. There are many things you can’t control, but what you can control is your own performance. And in that regard, it might be just saying to yourself, right, I’ll get through the next five minutes and then I’ll see how I go. Because I, for example, at one of the stages of the expedition, I had a blister on my heel that was the size of a 50 pence coin in the UK, which is pretty large. And that was just, you know, there was just this pain and agony piercing at my heel every minute of the day. That would have been enough to put me off and to give up. But I chose to focus, despite that physical challenge, to focus on just getting through the next, well, as I say, the next five minutes, sometimes the next half an hour. So I gave myself, I broke my control down into these really small goals and said, what can I focus on to get through that? And then what that does, as you’re successful and you accomplish that, that gives you your motive for action, which is, you know, we use the word motivation. So you then go, well, I can do five minutes, okay, maybe I’ll get through the next five minutes and then I’ll get through the next five minutes. And before you know where you are, you’ve skied for an hour. And perhaps you never imagined you could even do that. And I think that really applies in the workplace as well, is focusing at this moment in time, what is it that I actually can control? There’s a lot of uncertainty out there, but can I manage my own time? Can I just focus on the things that I can do today to be the best I can be, or to just manage my own anxiety and nervousness? Because when we get so caught up in our emotions, we can’t think straight and we have to therefore find a way to manage those emotions, fearfulness, anxiety, whatever it might be, to put our brain at rest so that actually we can get into the thinking part of our brain, which will help us to make better quality decisions.
Matt Alder [00:10:21]:
That makes perfect sense. To dig in a bit deeper, obviously, this is a very disruptive and uncertain time. There’ll be people who are trying to plan what the future of talent acquisition looks like in their business. There’ll be people who are desperately trying to recruit huge amounts of people very quickly because they’re a key industry in the current crisis. And then also people who, through no fault of their own, are leaving their jobs and having to think about their career. So people are needing a huge amount of resilience and motivation and inspiration at the moment. What would your advice be to people Right now, in those, in the, in the really intense situations that we’re currently finding ourselves in, I think it’s important.
Sue Stockdale [00:11:06]:
To start with the known. Start with the, if you like the existing data that you have when you’re doing your planning that despite there being a mass of uncertainty, we often make assumptions to fill in the gaps there. So I think about planning is to say, okay, what do I actually know? If you like for certain, now get that data, fill in the gaps with your assumptions, and then as the situation changes, you can change those assumptions into data. What I find is that very often leaders say, well, I don’t know everything, so I can’t make a decision. And they become indecisive. Well, that is actually an action in its own right. Doing nothing is a choice and often has a negative implication on other people who are waiting for something to happen, waiting for some direction. So I think it start with the known trust that by doing something you will get more information. Just like I described in those skiing for five minutes, you get more information and from that basis you can then make some more decisions. So I think doing nothing really is not an option. And it’s about trusting yourself that by taking those small steps, by focusing on what the known is, it will help you to move forward. So even for those people that perhaps haven’t got a job, can they come back to say, well, what’s on my resume? What are the skills I already have? How could they be used in a different environment, perhaps from what I’ve traditionally worked in so far? Who do I know in those sectors, what industries seem to be recruiting at the moment rather than perhaps shedding the workforce? So all of those things, you can start with the knowns and then build from there.
Matt Alder [00:12:43]:
So in your experience as a coach and in the work that you do, what is it that holds people back? Because sometimes people don’t move forward because there are things or thought processes or beliefs that get in the way. What do you see that? What do you see that’s common? And what can people do about it?
Sue Stockdale [00:13:03]:
Well, I think you hit the nail on the head there, Matt. Beliefs are so core to how we operate as human beings, as HR professionals, talent acquisition professionals, and so on. What I kind of observe is that often people aren’t actually aware of how their beliefs are driving their behavior. And until they have that awareness, then it gives them choice. And actually, what I’m talking about here is when I’m coaching people, I quickly build up rapport and trust with them so that they can be very open and just explore the reality that they’re facing at that given moment. And then what? You know, my skill as a coach is to spot those patterns of behavior, patterns of thinking that I’m hearing them talk about, and then that enables them to really look at their beliefs and think, okay, how, in what way those beliefs maybe are hindering me at this given time in moving forwards. So, you know, whilst we don’t all have the luxury necessarily of spending time with a coach, we can do a little bit of self reflection ourselves to start to become aware of how our beliefs are driving our behavior. So a great question to reflect on or ask yourself is what belief is driving that particular behavior? That I’ve just. So I’ve taken a decision to do nothing. So what did I believe that caused me to make that choice and just start to notice? Which then, as I say, gives you a choice to do something with it or not. And I think when we. Because I love providing inspiration for people and that’s not just from my own experience. I do run a podcast that’s Access to Inspiration, where I’m sharing stories with other people who’ve had interesting and amazing experiences in their work and lives. When we are taking out our own day to day challenges and we can kind of transcend that current situation and get more awareness and perspective, we have more choice. I remember in the Arctic on a really tough day, at the end of it, I’d climb into my tent and the one luxury that I had to give me inspiration was a book. And I had Sally Gunnell’s book. Sally Gunnell was the world record holder at the 400 meter hurdles, British champion, an Olympic gold medalist. And I would read what Sally’s experiences were to get to her goal or her accomplishment of an Olympic gold medal. And I would say, well, if Sally can do it, I can keep going. And I think we have to sometimes just look out of our own situation, look around us and hear and ask people questions around you. How have you coped with overcoming that challenge? What have you learned? And by hearing those stories, that gives us a bit of belief ourselves to perhaps think, well, maybe I could do that too.
Matt Alder [00:15:49]:
You mentioned your podcast there and the inspirational stories that you showcase. I won’t ask you to pick a favorite, but can you give us an example of an inspirational story that someone’s told you that might really help inspire people right now?
Sue Stockdale [00:16:04]:
Yeah. Well, one of the. One of the people I never thought I would get a chance to interview and did was an astronaut, more recently, John David Bartow. He was the research manager at the International Space Station and a solar physicist. And he designed a telescope that was going to be used at the International Space Station. In those days, NASA took the scientists that designed equipment on the space shuttle to the space station to use their equipment. He never imagined that even being an astronaut was possible. Now what he said that really struck home to not only me, but many of our other listeners was he talked about family time when he was young, when he was at the dinner table with his parents and his sister. He said, we often used to ask lots of questions and every time we asked a question, my father would say, well, how are you going to find out the answer to that? Get out the encyclopedia, he said. And we would race from the table and we’d bring down the encyclopedia and we would look up the answer, he said. And that developed a sense of curiosity in me and my sister. He said, now maybe my father was just avoiding saying I don’t know, but that was hugely impactful for him. And then I asked our listeners to give us feedback about what had been most impactful for them on the recent podcast series that we’ve done. And one listener said that she’s got a four year old child. She said, and I really resonated with what J.D. bartle said. She said, because my daughter comes up to me all the time and asks me, why this? What’s that? And she says, most of the time I don’t know the answer, but now I’ve got inspiration and motivation to say, well, I don’t know, let’s go and find out. And she says it’s brought a new sense of joy and curiosity and discovery for her relationship with her four year old daughter. And now rather than just perhaps not answering the question or ignoring it, they’re going on that voyage of discovery together. And that might be a really small thing, but I think that’s quite impactful for somebody in their life.
Matt Alder [00:18:03]:
Well, that’s certainly impactful for me because I now have a strategy for dealing with the endless questions my four year old father eyes at me every single day. So, final question.
Matt Alder [00:18:14]:
What about leadership?
Matt Alder [00:18:16]:
Lots of people listening are leading teams. Those teams are working remotely. What those teams are doing is changing in lots of different ways and in structure and in purpose in whatever that might be. What would your advice be to the leaders who are listening?
Sue Stockdale [00:18:33]:
The number one thing I observe with leaders is that they sometimes struggle with actually leading as opposed to managing. And it’s a subtle difference in the mind again of being comfortable with achieving results through others, enabling others and what I would call the leader coach mindset. So that by asking questions and getting other people to think, encouraging them and supporting them rather than perhaps judging them, you get that two plus two equals five effect that you’ve got multiple brains really flourishing and innovating and bringing their best to the team as opposed to the more command and control focus. I completely understand that in times of pressure and uncertainty, there can be a desire to hunker down and want to control everything yourself as a leader, but actually that’s the very moment where you have to relax and trust in your team. It’s a bit like rock climbing, Matt. I don’t know if you’ve ever done that, but when I did rock climbing, I have a great fear of heights, but I like to kind of challenge myself to overcome things that I think I won’t like. And I remember climbing up the rock face immediately and I was like clinging on for dear life, holding onto the rock so tightly that I was just transfixed. And the person that I was with said, look, sue, just, just trust in yourself and lean back a little bit more and relax. Sure enough, when I was able to take a little bit of perspective and begin to look around me, I could see the next handhold immediately. It was far easier. I just see sometimes leaders gripping onto the metaphorical rock face so tightly that they don’t want to take that next step. They don’t want to trust their team. Perhaps if leaders can think of themselves as fantastic rock climbers, trust and enable in their teams that they will be able to all bring out their brilliance as they move forward in times of uncertainty.
Matt Alder [00:20:32]:
So finally, where can people find you and find your work?
Sue Stockdale [00:20:36]:
The easiest way is to go to my website, suesstockdale.com, twitter oestockdale, or you can find me via our podcast accesstoinspiration.org generally, just type Sue Stockdale into Google and you’ll find me there.
Matt Alder [00:20:51]:
Sue, thank you very much for talking to me.
Sue Stockdale [00:20:53]:
Thank you, Matt. It’s been a great pleasure to have this conversation.
Matt Alder [00:20:57]:
My thanks to Sue Stockdale. You can subscribe to this podcast in Apple Podcasts or via your podcasting app of choice. Please also follow us on Instagram. You can find the show by searching for Recruiting Future. You can also listen and subscribe to the show on Spotify. You can find and search all the past episodes@www.recruitingfuture.com on that site. You can subscribe to the mailing list and find out more about Working with me. Thanks very much for listening. I’ll be back next time, and I hope you’ll join me.
